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In Reply to: Private Ryan: the sick joke. The new low for the US movie industry (yes, industry...) posted by Victor Khomenko on July 07, 1999 at 15:13:11:
As stated before, you have the right to like or dislike any movie, however I am willing to bet that you have no true idea of what it was like to be in combat or more importantly on the beach that day. I know two men that were there. Neither one of them ever, and I mean ever talks about it. From what I have read the battle scenes are very realistic. Do you find the personal and group heroism in this movie unbelievable? Do you find yourself thinking that you would never risk yourself for anyone or anything as the charactors in the movie did? If you do, you are not alone. The reason this movie was made was to show younger generations just what those brave men did, individually and collectively. All of us need to understand the sacrifices made on our behalf, and the price we must pay if/when our leaders choose to go to war. I sincerely doubt that we as a nation could ever accomplish such a task again. I am not comforted by this thought.
that some day, people will learn the hard work of thinking for themselves, and acting in their own selfish interests--like voting responsibly, participating in local goverment, and seeing that the "enemy" gets a fair deal (think globally, act locally). It's the economic/power-hording interests that stir-up the war hate. Those sacrifices weren't made on our behalf- they were made for Standard Oil, International Banking, Guns-R-US, etal. I'd be willing to give my life for my fellow man--by not fighting. I hope the kind of thinking that makes nobel sacrifices out of the horrors that men did to one another dies out, but Spielberg keeps it going, and going, and going... They won't talk about it because they know to let it die. What a price to pay for enlightenment. Spielburg is making money off the war and keeping alive the idea that it's about "Ideals".I'd like to see him make a documentary about the Iraqui peasants standing in the trenches with their empty hands raised high over their heads, Allah Akbar, as the M1 tanks with lights so bright retinas were instantly seared, pushed 20-foot berms of choking sand--a wave moving 30-miles and hour on both sides of the trenches nobody could escape from, burying alive tens of thousands of startled men and boys who thought they were saved from the Republican Guard's minefields all around them. I'd like to see him do the special effects of a B-52 saturation bombing from 40,000 feet, so high the starving people below never heard them, never saw them, never knew how close the American Death Machine was, how long the reach, how terrible the justice, the percussion wave so powerful that bodies are split in half even thousands of yards away, and those further out have their eyeballs blown right out of their heads and their brains pushing through their eardurms, still alive, still conscious, dying slowly for a man they hate more that we do, forced away from their homes and families at gunpoint. I'd like to see him show the faces of the A-10 pilots who caught the fleeing men running for their lives out into the desert night, caught them in their night vision goggles and vaoprized them with the depleated uranium anti-tank shells. God fearing men, one and all. They're defending George Bush's way of life. A thousand points of light, piercing bodies all through the night.
We can defeat our enemies by building Kmarts on every corner in every town and village. Selling them Coke and Burgers and leaf-blowers. That's why they hate us. They hate our Baywatch, they hate our Beanie Babies, they hate our Christmas. Hollywood and television is everything they hate about us. "We have met the enemy, and he is us."
I am not comforted by this thought:
That war is Catch 22.
(hey DaveH, I hope you forgive my ranting--I can't help it sometimes)
petew;
If you are looking for an argument that the Gulf War wasn't about oil, I can't help you. It was, and I trust most are aware of this. I probably criticize American culture and societal norms more then most, but I still believe that it remains one of the best. There are certainly more enlightened societies; Iceland, Greenland, the Scandanavian countries, etc. -- yet there are many worse. Many societies were women and chilren are property, if not slaves. Societies were there are no opportunities for education or self-fulfillment unless born into a certain privileged class. Places where even a pseudo-democracy is forbidden. America remains a place of opportunity and promise. We give more money to charity per person, per capita, and per GDP then any other country. I'm not just talking about the government or charitable organizations, I'm talking about us, normal everyday people. The western jedeo-christian (sp?) ethic of giving of oneself remains as part of our cultural foundation. Even when it means giving one's life for what one believes. I accept that this was one of the things that Spielberg was trying to communicate. I think he did that rather well.I wish all evils could be conquered by non-violent means. I wish soldiers read Gandhi and not Patton. I wish there were no soldiers. There are bullies out there, they don't listen to reason and they don't want to be enlightened. They just want what they want and will kill and destroy to take it. I am grateful that I remain an English speaking American and not a Japanese-German speaking citizen of the 'axis powers'. Aren't you?
***If you are looking for an argument that the Gulf War wasn't about oil, I can't help you. It was, and I trust most are aware of this.I agree the case can be made for this (not that I would agree 100%). However, I shall take a war for oil's sake any day over the one to save our President's sorry ass.
Victor.
***As stated before, you have the right to like or dislike any movie, however I am willing to bet that you have no true idea of what it was like to be in combat or more importantly on the beach that day.I certainly have not participated in any action, if that is what you are saying. At the same time, there is such thing as education and many of do know about ancient Grece without actually having been being there. Yes, you listen to all who were there, you read, you watch *good* movies and you form your opinion.
Also, I would be the last one to ridicule or even imply any disrespect for the great things that our father did for all of us - either from the Western part or the Russian. I don't think we should even bring this into discussion. We are not talking about sacrifices, we are not talking about history, we are talking about one lousy movie. Let's discuss the movie.
***I know two men that were there.Many of us do. For instance, both of my parents were in the Army defending Leningrad during its 900 day siege where 1 million died. My father-in-law went through the German concentration camp, escaped, joined the Partisans and then the Red Army, finishing the war wounded in Berlin. Yes, I too have some points of reference and I DO take them *very* seriously.
***Neither one of them ever, and I mean ever talks about it. From what I have read the battle scenes are very realistic. Do you find the personal and group heroism in this movie unbelievable?
??? Please see above. No, not me.
***Do you find yourself thinking that you would never risk yourself for anyone or anything as the charactors in the movie did???? That has nothing to do with discussion of movie. Movie is art form (or is supposed to be). We were discussing the particular artwork, not what it stands for. The subject and means of art are often intertwined, but they are never the same. Many people confuse the two, though.
***If you do, you are not alone.???
***The reason this movie was made was to show younger generations just what those brave men did, individually and collectively. All of us need to understand the sacrifices made on our behalf, and the price we must pay if/when our leaders choose to go to war. I sincerely doubt that we as a nation could ever accomplish such a task again. I am not comforted by this thought
When talking about educating the young, we must stay away from cheap Hollywood presentation that does more harm than good to anyone.
When I watch the Rambo or the Commando movies I see the hero killing ten enemies with a single bullet with bodies fly ten feet in the air. I know it is fake and unreal and at the same time I hear the teenagers laugh and cheer. It is sort of OK, it is garbage any way you look at it.
Now, I see almost the same stuff in that "serious, educational, real" Private Ryan. I see ten Germans killed with the same bullet, their bodies fly ten feet in the air. I see the barrage of German bullets not hitting any GI's at close range (where did they learn to shoot like that, those lousy German soldierss with their MP-40's not able to hit a man from 20 feet?). I see the US sniper hitting a 1" target from 450 meters - a bullshit better reserved for the Sniper flick, it is so laughable. I see poor actor Tom destroy three Germans armed with MP-40's and not getting a scratch. Yep, all that stuff is so real that I feel ashamed.
Yes, I too hope that that movie does at least some good to the young. Will it? I don't know. But it will most certainly not go down into the annals as a *good* movie. Rest assured that twenty years from now people will be talking about Fellini and Bergman, but not Spielberg. He is just one mandane artisan of rather opportunistic nature. Yes, and the close friend of our beloved Mr. Clinton.
Victor.
You compare Speilberg with Kubrik et al and state that he is not a director like them or perhaps should not be considered a director at all. Perhaps I agree with you. Speilberg will never be considered a great director of "art films" yet he will be remembered as a great movie maker and more importantly as a great "story teller." This is, after all, what he does, and in my humble opinion better then most. He enchants his audience with stories. Just because his movies are not filled with Faustian angst doesn't mean that they are vile crap. His movies tell stories; stories of wonder and enchantment, stories of adventure, stories of good and evil. Narrative films such as Hook, Indiana Jones, and Schlindler's List will never be compared to La Dolce Vita or Citizen Kane, however, they will be brought up in comparisons between Speilburg and other great story tellers who used film as their medium.Saving Private Ryan was about the men of our father's generation and their reality. Service to others, self sacrifice, patriotism; these were more then words to that generation, they were simple but absolute truths which they activily embodied. I thought that was what Speilberg accomplished, to show these simple yet fundamental concepts in a modest story that took place in a very complicated time and under the circumstances of war. Did he get carried away with making his first war movie? Perhaps, but not overmuch. Saving Private Ryan is a movie about the heroism of war and the good citizenship of peacetime that such heorism demands. It is a story about patriotism and patriots. A subject deserving attention and a story, perhaps a bit simplistically, but in the end well told.
***You compare Speilberg with Kubrik et al and state that he is not a director like them or perhaps should not be considered a director at all. Perhaps I agree with you. Speilberg will never be considered a great director of "art films" yet he will be remembered as a great movie maker and more importantly as a great "story teller." This is, after all, what he does, and in my humble opinion better then most. He enchants his audience with stories. Just because his movies are not filled with Faustian angst doesn't mean that they are vile crap. His movies tell stories; stories of wonder and enchantment, stories of adventure, stories of good and evil. Narrative films such as Hook, Indiana Jones, and Schlindler's List will never be compared to La Dolce Vita or Citizen Kane, however, they will be brought up in comparisons between Speilburg and other great story tellers who used film as their medium.
I don't have problem with that. However, I do start getting a problem when such "hot dog" (to borrow Steve's expression) movie is being loudly trumpeted as the best movie of the year and it becomes a larger than life celebration cause. Mind you, even in the US, where movie making is almost totally dominated by garbage production, there is Allen, to name just one.I don't mean to beat this to death, but my problem with Spielberg's style is the cheap methods he uses, stuff one normally associates with the Friday the 13th. There ARE better ways of telling a story. One doesn't have to reserve to "Faustian angst".
***Saving Private Ryan was about the men of our father's generation and their reality. Service to others, self sacrifice, patriotism; these were more then words to that generation, they were simple but absolute truths which they activily embodied. I thought that was what Speilberg accomplished, to show these simple yet fundamental concepts in a modest story that took place in a very complicated time and under the circumstances of war. Did he get carried away with making his first war movie? Perhaps, but not overmuch. Saving Private Ryan is a movie about the heroism of war and the good citizenship of peacetime that such heorism demands. It is a story about patriotism and patriots. A subject deserving attention and a story, perhaps a bit simplistically, but in the end well told.
You are probably right and in final analysis that movie is perhaps going to have some positive impact. I hope it does.
Regards,
Victor.
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