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In Reply to: "The Godfather I and II posted by rico on March 3, 2005 at 07:21:24:
Mafia families are NOT metaphors for American society, nor are their events pivotal, historically.
Great acting, brilliant editing, professional cinematography, good characterizations...but a photo of a turd, no matter how great, cannot escape its subject matter.
Follow Ups:
The Mafia was a major influence on America culture and certainly on Nevada, the film industry, entertainment, prohibition, and probably the drug industry. Burying one's head in the sand to it and saying well these people are meanies so not worth making a film about it makes as much as sense as Wordsworth and Dickens for writing about their day's social plight.One can argue about the merits of the Godfather films -- I personally view them as Mob Soap Operas - but the subject matter is irrelevant for the msot part to whether a film can be a great movie or not. Goodfellas tackled the mob better and I could make a case for this opinion and others would no doubt disagree.
The film business allows the audience to see the "other" at a safe distance and who knows you might learn something or feel something about the subject matter. If a film is not about something of importance then I might agree with you. A lot of ARTHOUSE films for example are about their own self-absorbed vanity -- which of course speak to like minded target audiences.
Huh? You have difficulty divorcing the film from it's subject matter. Which is fine. But good or great films are not so based upon their subject matter, but rather how they are about the subject matter. Films, like art, are a reflection of many things. Ugly things. Beautiful things. Happy things, etc. Do you go to an art museum and rate paintings or photography based upon their content? Are photographs of poverty naturally worse than those of a Church? Is a painting of a murder (and they do exist) worse than that of a choir of angels?You love Tombstone? Doc Holliday. Was he someone whose exploits were worthy of being dramatized? Is ruthless killing in the old west any more savory than in mid-twentieth century America? Or is that a turd that was dressed up enough for you.
Mafia families are not historically pivotal? Did I read that right? Where to begin. An entire city, Las Vegas, which is enjoyed by millions of people, and is the fastest growing city in the United States, was built and developed by the Mafia. Prohibition was largely derailed because of the Mafia moving in after prohibition and supplying illegal liquor. An entire arm of the United States Attorney General's office is devoted to the Mafia. There is no secret that the United States government conspired with the Mafia in an attempt to kill Castro shortly after he took power in Cuba. I suspect that if I lived in New York City, and had first hand knowledge of the influence the Mafia wielded in their political history, I could name more. But your statement that the Mafia was not pivotal in this countries history is misleading at best. Certainly not as pivotal as the American Revolution. But very signficant nonetheless.
You fail to mention that many people have a fascination with the Mafia. Go to a bookstore. Shelves are lined with them. I am no expert, but I have read books by Fratiano and Valachi, and the events recorded in their books are far more graphic than those within the Godfather films.
At the very least, if you are going to criticize a film for it's content, at least do so consistently.
***You fail to mention that many people have a fascination with the Mafia.Well, I will have to give you that this is one strong argument.
I am not sure what you mean. People generally like to see things that interest them. I played cowboys and indians when I was a kid. I suspect that experience has fueled my love of westerns. I assume that people interested in space exploration like science fiction. But I do not presume to tell someone who loves space exploration that the science fiction movies that they enjoy are, to use a word you are intimately familiar with, "kaka", because the subject matter is not to my liking. Rather, I would rather watch the film, and form my own opinions based on the execution. I am not particularly interested in space exploration, but Apollo 13 absorbed me.My point was that there are people interested in the Mafia, and it's inner workings. Unless they start picking up some pea shooters and blasting away innocent folk, I do not think that interest has any more or less validity than, oh, say, someone's interest in a solder gun, capacitors, and tubes. Except the former makes for a better movie. The latter a more respectable profession.
If you review movies and form opinions about them based upon the fact that you do not find the subject matter interesting, then why watch the movie? Save yourself some time.
What sets the great movies which stand the test of time apart from the others is that they attract a huge audience beyond their subject matter, and do not rely upon their subject matter for their appeal. "'The Wizard of Oz' sucked because I hate good witches." "'High Noon' was terrible because, gasp, the lead carried a gun, and shot people."
Millions of people who have no interest in the Mafia consider the first two Godfather movies great. Which they are.
***If you review movies and form opinions about them based upon the fact that you do not find the subject matter interesting, then why watch the movie? Save yourself some time.I shall keep that my decision... with your permission.
Now, is there anything that if made into a movie you would refuse to watch?
A simple question. I am not going to burden you with my ideas of what I would refuse to watch (or what any reasonable man should refuse), just asking you... is there anything you would refuse to watch based on the subject matter?
If yes, then I really don't see why you are arguing. Different people have different sensitivities. I will watch many things my wife would not, but that is completely besides the point.
If you have no such threshold, however, then at least I will look differently at the mankind.
Is there anything I would refuse to watch? As opposed to try to avoid watching? Well, I suspect that if someone had a movie of adult having graphic sex with young girls or boys, I would refuse to watch. Or if someone had a movie of a live killing.But then, the subject matter would prevent from ever watching those films. On the other hand, if I, or anyone else watched a film, I must assume that the subject matter did NOT prevent me or them from watching. I certainly have watched films for which I did not agree with the subject matter, or it made me uncomfortable, particularly if the film was political. However, once I watched the film, I did not decide whether it was good or bad based upon whether I liked or enjoyed the subject matter.
I am not arguing about someone refusing to watch a movie because of the subject matter. But rather, someone watching a movie despite the subject matter, then making a conclusion as to it's merits based upon whether they enjoy the subject matter. There is a vast difference. Just as there is great art work, great music, and great photographs that depict unpleasant subjects, there are great films which do the same, The Godfather among them. When you go to an art museum, do you disqualify paintings and photographs as being great because of the subject? Then why do so with film?
I sometimes wonder if I am the only one feeling that way, but apparently not.The dehumanizing nature of subject, no matter how heavily sugar coated, shall never let the film raise to the level of greatness.
BTW - you and I had a clash over another film of this nature - about that lady serial killer. You apparently show some inconsistency here.
But entertainment professionally put together it is, however, only the original film. The second one was already completely mediocre, and the third - plain dreck.
I strongly object our fascination with deviants, perverts and criminals. I can watch those films, but I always keep the distance, and none of them had ever occupied a high spot on my lists. The rare case when subject does matter.
Many, myself included, consider Part II a better film than the superb Part I.
I dunno rico, to me the original one shall remain... well, original, with that feel you simply can't repeat. Like your first real love. To me that also was special affair, as I could not see it for several years when it came out, but read aplenty about it, to make my appetite bothersome. I thinks I saw it for the first time in 1979, when I came here.The part II has that strong derivative scent, that I always find objectionable, and to mee it frankly feels almost unnecessary. Many things should better be left untouched, like the original film in that case.
Inspite of the problem that tin pointed out, it is a near-great fiml. And add to all those elements already mentioned the incredible Nino Rota score, and it is something you will carry with you for the rest of your life. But part II I thought added nothing to this strong sensation, just used it.
But Part II contains the rest of the novel so I don't think you can call it "derivative" (not so for Part III).
Yes, I know, but it is still seems unnecessary.The original one was a concise work that should have been left alone in my view. Having the sequels actually waters down its effect and significance. And for many of us Goodfather is synonimous with Brando - such monumental was the significance of his role and performance.
Do you know if the original plan presumed the part II?
I don't think so as he had trouble getting the first one done, particularly since the studio didn't like his casting. But after it won the Best Picture Academy Award they greenlighted Part II.
but gave him an unlimited budget. Part one was shot on a shoestring without much backing by the studio or it would have had the same epic sweep as part 2.
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