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Hi Everyone: I am posting this for people who are "new" to this and looking for the experience of others. Let me start by saying, I grew up on vinyl & only got into HT by being pushed by a friend. Basically, I tacked on HT to my 2 channel setup. In fact the two channel part still operates without interference of the HT "stuff."I bought a Technics SH AC500D processor cheap, along with some cheap, small Energy speakers for the rear, along with a matching centre. I did buy a decent 3 channel amp. Wiring the thing up was a bucket of laughs ;-( Snake pit takes on new meaning! Anyway it did all work.
To be honest, it was a disappointing experience. It was either too loud or too quiet & nothing seemed to work right. After a couple of months of this situation, I bought the Radio Shack sound pressure meter that had been suggested here. I also moved the rear speakers to the corners of the room and attempted to have some rear "sound stage" & played the test DVD & used the RS meter. Let me tell you the difference was clear & the sound was more balanced. Although it was not perfect, it was moving in the right direction. I upgraded my front speakers & moved my Linn Helix to the rear. WOW, there is stuff in the rear! Movies like U571, Lord of the Rings, etc. had lots of effects in the rear that sounded much better with "full range" speakers in the back.
Currently I need to upgrade the center to match the fronts better & a better processor would not hurt either.
However, my experience suggests the following:
1) set up is important & you need to experiment to get a 5 channel system right
2) Most of the processors I have heard do not make very good 2 channel preamps
3) Movies are fun for the whole family ;-)
4) you do get something from better center and rear speakers
5) set up is important & you need to experiment
6) there is no rule six ;-)
7) set up is important & you need to experiment to get things right
Follow Ups:
have technics also and took me a few weeks of fiddling to dial in. most noticable surround effect came from positioning rear speakers. have them bout 10 inches behind and couple few to side of couch. they are 2-way, rear ported bookshelves. i found that pointing about 20 degrees from straight ahead dramatically impoved surround effect and actually had a soundstage-like effect. sound objects moving from front to side to rear is smooth and consistent. i am really wondering how much better a pricey processor and dvd player would be. many of the much more expensive processors have built in preamps, dac's, etc which i simply dont need. the beauty of the technics is that it is pretty much only good for one thing - sorting out dts and dolby digital signals. i am wondering if higher processing rates ie. 32 bit, etc. would matter. would'nt most of the cost of the pricey processors be attributable to preamps, dac's and higher processing rates? and estes, have you listened to energy's veritas? i have the 2.3's and although they are a pain to set up since they are very revealing, i am wondering if they can be bettered all-round much for price. they could use a little more low end extension, a little clearer in the top end but this could very well be my amp/cd/wires limitations. a good speaker but expect to pair with good components to hear their best. any lessor components will be heard and be easily noticable and become a bothersome upgrade area. would love to try out the 22.3's. i am on/off trying to buy a pair to try for fun. cheers!
The Technics does have a "preamp" built into it, so unless you run it into a 6 channel preamp, you end up using the volume control in the Technics. My impression is that there are better processors out there...but for more money. For example I have a Rotel for about $2K that is better, but it is a lot more than what the Technics sold for new. You can do one simple mod on the Technics, get an adaptor for the plug so you can use a heavier power cable. It made a difference for me.
cool, i'll be looking into that...
I've only recently gotten serious, at least for multichannel Hi-rez (e.g. SACD) music. My first serious venture into evaluating MC music suggested to me the center speaker is at least important, if not more important, than the 2 main speakers for music as well as HT. I've a friend who spent more on his center than he did on his main speakers.All my speakers are full-range and equidistant in ITU configuration. The compromise so-far has been a non-identical speaker due to the display issue (i.e. identical-to-main center speaker and HT display usually don't mesh very well). I'm also still using much better amplification and cables for the 2-channel setup than for the rears/center/sub.
The other possible issue is while I committed to idential full-range speakers in the rear; I haven't played much yet which suggested to me the rears are anywehere close in importance as a good center.
I agree regarding the center speaker, surround dont have to be as powerfull, a lot less volume from the back, but they should sound similar, at least same tweeter...
Antonio Melo Ribeiro
1) If you have tube amps, try them. Use your amp/processor's preouts. Tube amps will improve the sound two fold. Of course pick your most articulate amp for the center channel.2) Change to a preamp processor only and use tube amps for each channel. This will improve the sound over "1".
3) skip two if you can and just do "4".
4) remove the preamps processor and get a dvd player with a processor built in. Run this directly to your tube amps. This will result in the most natural sounding home theater. Quite incredible.
5) For two channel, get your favorite dac and attach it to the dvd player through a digital out. Keep the dac off except for stereo. You'll have to get a rca selector switch from radio shack, 15 bucks, to run the dac to your favorite amp and speakers in the ht.
6) I agree that HT is family time.
I am one of those who is not willing to go to a tube based system. But the joy of this hobby is that there is more than one way to good sound.My issue with using a DVD player as a transport for 2 channel is that in my experience those with processors built in sound awful in 2 channel. My Teac T-1 transport blows them out of the water in 2 channel. The RS switcher also leaves a lot to be desired. It cuts the sound stage & is unpleasant. The other issue is where does my Turntable plug in? ;-)
I'm have been just extremely surprised at the natural sound of this inexpensive Denon dvd player as it goes directly to the tube amps.It far surpasses the Rotel 985 preamp processor. that I had before that.
The only disadvantage is that volume is set at all the amps. There is no central volume control. (I have volume controls on all my amps.)
The solution for the turntable would be this. The rca selector switch from Radio Shack has three inputs or choices. So one could be from the dvd player for the ht, the other can be from the dac, and the third can be from the turntable/phono preamp. The turntable would have to have its own seperate phone preamp.
I just love the sound. You actually "forget" the sound, and just get into the movie. Voices are very natural.
I found the HT setup to be very enjoyable after a bit of tweaking. All of my speakers are of the same Tannoy brand and they all use the exact same 8" drivers with integrated coaxial tweater. The floorstanding rear speakers are behind me by a good 10-feet. DVD concert videos are especially fun in DTS! I removed the center channel speaker just for kicks and I don't miss it. I use the 'phantom' center channel setting in my AV receiver/processor. This works just fine with those concert DVDs but I haven't played around with it much for regular movies.
Accuphase DP65V cdp or Denon DVD-5900 Universal
PS Audio PCA-2 Pre - Krell KSA50S - Tannoy D500 spkrs
If your processor has the Dolby Pro Logic II codec give that a try on 2 channel material. After 50 years of stereo only I experimented with plain stereo versus PL II and its rival, DTS Neo 6. These derive a 5 or 6 channel mix from two channel sources. I found that PL II in its "music" mode sounds the best and now use it 100% of the time for all two channel material (LPs. laserdiscs, tapes, FM, broadcast cable TV, and those few DVDs in Dolby Digiatl 2 channel). In PL II, instrumental timbre and soundstage are improved and there is a heightened sense of listening "around" the instruments. I detect no "phasey" effects.My collections have a whole new life. PL II was developed jointly by Dolby and Jim Fosgate, the grand old man of surround sound. It sounds infinitely better than Pro Logic's first incarnation (PL I always sounds distorted to me).
Also, try a phantom center. I switched to this after ten years of a "hard" center.
I agree with your other points. I have forund that all speakers should be equi-distant from the sweet spot, set at identical levels and,ideally, all identical.
My processer is a cheap Technics, several years old bought used, so no PLII. I am looking for a better processor, but also used.I have switched the centre out, to see if I like the result. Finding a matching center has been a pain & doing without would make life simpler ;-)
You do need a good matching center, unless you cannot afford one and you seat on the sweetspot all the time, (you watch your AV alone), INHO... ;)
Antonio Melo Ribeiro
After experimenting without a center channel, I have gone back to using one. It sounds better in my situation.Now I will have to hunt for a matching center. My front speakers are Energy 22.3, which were pricey in their day. Unfortunately, nothing that Energy makes now comes close to the sound. So I am looking for another brand that is a better match.
I cannot find your speakers anywhere on Google... Anyway, I also have discontinued front speakers without a matching center, so I had to listen to a lot of center speakers until I found a good match...I learned that the center has to be as large as possible to be able to play male voices with enough body, very detailed, and it cannot sound brighter than the fronts, otherwise you will hear two of everything, particularly voices...
I bought the Proac CC", fantastic center, will probably match almost any speakers, but a bit pricey... I didnt like its small brother, the CC1, too bright, not enough body...
I think the tweeter is the most important driver to match, look for similar material, silk, aluminum or whatever, also for same order crossover...
Antonio Melo Ribeiro
If you go to the Energy website & look in the archives, you will see the 22.3.According to UHF, who use the earlier Energy 22 Conniseurs, the only speakers that matched was the Proac & the Theil. Looking to get rid of your Proac cheap ;-) Please, please, please...;-)
I agree that it important that the tweeter be of the same material. I will check out some other centers to see if I can find one that is close to my needs. I have learned at this price point, it is best to take your time.
I told you my Proac will match most good speakers... ;)I did find V2.3, not 22.3 !!!
Antonio Melo Ribeiro
The link is below. Go to the energy site, click on classics & the picture on the side is the 22.3. Go to brochures & you will find one for the 22 series. Energy used the "22" for two lines of speaker...the first series had the 22 Pro, 22 Reference & the 22 Reference Conisseurs with the last being the most expensive.My view is they produce lots of bass for the price, but a bit weak in the midrange. I will be upgrading the internal wire & crossover in the New Year. I will post a review then.
Look for a center with the Vifa Ring radiator, there are plenty, it might match your speakers reasonably...
Antonio Melo Ribeiro
It was called a "hyperdome" tweeter. Quite decent sounding. Can you suggest some brands that use the Ring radiator tweeter? Thanks in advance...
It should also have a similar xover to blend-in properly, yours are 2 ways so lets see what I can find, but you have to test them, I never heard any of this...http://www.polkaudio.com/home/products.php?category=5&speaker=162&POLKAUDIO=4a327b8645217d398fde0d713cb0c16b
http://www.av123.com/products_product.php?section=speakers&product=26.1
Antonio Melo Ribeiro
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