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136.37.101.134
In Reply to: RE: HBO pulls GWTW . . . posted by Billy Wonka on June 10, 2020 at 10:29:26
scholar giving perspective.
I don't know why this bothers you and others? Certainly, there is little or no objection here to tamping down Holocaust deniers and their material in sixteen countries, including Israel and Germany: are these countries wrong? Can you imagine Israelis tolerating statues (in Israel) that honor German generals? It's about time the US takes full responsibility for the hundreds of years of genocide against African-Americans. Millions and millions of African-Americans died because of slavery.
Why is the attitude of some, "Okay, why can't we just move on from this?" Try saying that to an Israeli sometime. Or an Armenian. Or... a Native-American.
Follow Ups:
4 star general and history professor at West Point explains why.Knocks down all of the other arguments.
Col Seidule Professor and Head of Department of History - West Point.
States Rights argument is destroyed. Just people trying to defend their family heritage I suspect.
"The civil war was about states rights. The state's right to have slavery.
Saying a war is about something doesnt mean it is ONLY about that. It means that's the main reason for it and without it there wouldn't have been a war."
Edits: 06/24/20 06/24/20
seems to make the points of confederacy
You don't seem to realize that the Civil War wasn't fought over slavery it self, but primarily over state's rights to govern themselves, which was of extreme importance to our (USA) founders. Over 300,000 Confederate soldiers gave their lives for this. I think it is safe to say most of them did not own slaves. My father, and his descendants, were from Texas. He revered and was proud of his southern heritage. He was far from a racist, and thought slavery was horrible. Robert E. Lee owned slaves, yet felt it was unjust and long overdue for a different view and change. His concern was whether a mass freeing of slaves would be detrimental to them as they may not be prepared to fend for them selves. He didn't have an answer for something that was an accepted practice for thousands of years.
As for comparing those from the Confederacy to Nazi Germany ... it disgusts me.
who were bending the Constitution over a political/moral issue not a legal one. Yes, slavery is wrong but people do not understand that twenty-six million people are in slavery now (some say it's double that number). Who speaks for them? American blacks don't own slavery.
Most people don't know that Lincoln wanted peace so badly that he would have left slavery in place if a truce had been struck. And, slavery would start petering out by the 1880s due to the mechanization of farming.
I presume HBO was taking a knee with their "temporary" pull of GWTW. Maybe it was for the best. What's going on now is far greater than what went on pre-Civil War.
'The Union were the traitors ... '
historically inaccurate ... look up secession or copy past this link:
https://www.britannica.com/topic/secession
'bending the Constitution'
balderdash! can you provide a citation of what was being 'bent' ... ?
'Yes, slavery is wrong but'
there's no need for a 'but' after that statement
'American blacks don't own slavery'
the irony just drips off of that statement. who does 'own' it here?
be well,
Though you shouldn't have to.You can take the Mr out of the Grits, but you can't take the Grits out that Mr.
"Once this was all Black Plasma and Imagination"-Michael McClure
Edits: 06/14/20
it all boils down to POV. I'm so curious as to how the entire population of the world doesn't address contemporary slavery. Or, why would people think the tragedy of slavery falls on one particular people?
We don't have a one on one problem, we have a political problem. Here, we have not had a violent protest as yet. That's pretty good.
GWTW was Hollywood creating an idealized setting of grandiose wealth and obsequious manners. Women have long eaten that up especially in the South.
GWTW has been creating its mythic time and romance, innocently, for so long until a few individuals inform/dictate it is bad. This doesn't bode well for the future of film or television.
d
NT
NT
that's pretty cogent Mr. Wonka ... enough to concur with that I'll not try to subtract anything ... but allow me to add:
'curious as to how the entire population of the world doesn't address contemporary slavery'
this is actually happening in real time it's just escaped your notice
I appreciate this post of yours even if it wasn't addressed to me
and I like grits
regards,
it's 'curious' that when asked for clarification or a citation from those making provocative baseless assertions, they simply run away ... it's almost as if they're embarrassed by their own opinions, or maybe a seed of self / social awareness taking root
or is that too much hope to hold out?
best regards,
Ready to fight over something you can't change. Be sure to tear down my tombstone.
NT
a
"Once this was all Black Plasma and Imagination" -Michael McClure
at least he got up off of the floor
his hysteria seems to be subsiding
progress! or new meds?
either way, progress!
regards,
I'll never desecrate a grave ...
what is this 'triggered' you speak of?
surely you've encountered what is known as a 'retort' before?
be well,
People with issues change their monikers here from one fake one to another fake one trying to escape their past or reinvent themselves.
But you know, wherever you go, there you are.
Even a thread on GWTW brings out the loons.
Who can figure? We humans are screwy and then some.
"Once this was all Black Plasma and Imagination" -Michael McClure
And that the Southern politicians were the major opponents to civil rights legislation a hundred years after this war. And that this great nation would be now split in two if those cowards and traitors had prevailed. Lee's victory would have meant a continuation of slavery, period.
I very much doubt it would matter to a Jew or a black slave if he were killed in an oven or worked to death in a field. Mass, systematized murder--- both. The biggest difference: slavery lasted several hundred years.
I would like to see any documented proof you have that slaves were customarily murdered, vs the Jews by Hitler.
Also, Lee was not alone in the South thinking that slavery was wrong. You have no way of knowing that slavery would have continued in existence. Your assumption that if the Confederacy won would mean slavery would have continued unchanged has no merit. The change in attitude towards slavery almost worldwide changed over time. The South may very well have changed in time as well. Hell, the world, including the defeated North, could have forced it economically. You don't know.
Let me guess....you are a college professor.
Transporting people across the seas causing massive numbers of their deaths is murder. Working children, women, and men to death is murder. Killing those who seek freedom by escaping is murder.
Your comment about the possible non-continuation of slavery is shocking: do we know anything for certain about the future? Would Hitler have continued to kill Jews, gypsies, Slavs, and others he deemed sub-human, after the war, had he won? Should we have waited to find out?
I don't understand your argument at all, actually. Are you saying we should have let absolute evil continue because you have no idea how long it could last? Or are you saying slavery wasn't evil?
Perhaps you think Lee and Davis were honorable men, even though their support of slavery led to the deaths of hundreds of thousands of their fellow Americans?
BTW, it wasn't the Southerners who captured the Africans. It was those that sold to slave traders, or the traders themselves.They then sold to the farmers (ie slaveholders). It would hardly have been in the best interest of slave owners to murder their slaves...perhaps you never took a basic economics course. Many slave traders were black, and, interestingly one of the early large slave traders in America was black.
Another fact for you to help expand your knowledge...hundreds of thousands of Irish were enslaved by the Brits to farm the Carribean Islands. You don't see the Irish burning effigies of the Queen or seeking reparations.
I definitely am an admirer of Lee. He did not think slavery was right. Don't know too much about Jefferson Davis. Lee was not a proponent of slavery, and in fact thought it was wrong. He fought for the Confederacy because of states' rights.
BTW...are you a college professor?
involved in the slave trade means the hundreds of years of American slavery is okay? And by murder, I never said or meant assassinate. Work to death. That's what happened. Slaves were considered chattel, like dogs or cattle to be bred. Used, bred, discarded. Owned.
You may wish to consider that the Irish were indentured workers: when their work contracts were up, they were free. Their spouses and children also were not automatically slaves. (I am not a professor, for whatever that's worth).
Whoa!!....Tinear, I never said slavery was OK. Good God man! Slavery was terrible...an abomination to mankind. If you read that into my posts, I apologize for leading you astray. Also, I apologize for any insults...heat of the moment for me in these troubled times
To sum it up, I don't believe tat our history should be torn down. I believe the Civil War was over states' rights, with slavery the reason for the disagreement. I think it wrong to consider the 300,000 Confederate soldiers as traitors and slave mongers. My opinion, and shared by many ( although not
this board).
As for slaves vs indentured servants...I think deporting entire families (not always I concede) against their will, to a foreign country to work for as much as 7 years is pretty darn close to slavery. Also, it was not unusual to work these indentured servants to death their final year. We can debate this likely forever.
Let's move on...take care.
there's a beating heart there after all!
regards,
it's either the parroting of a white supremacist meme, proliferation of CT, or a profound misunderstanding of history ... you've dealt with the poster far longer than I, so you'll have greater insight into sussing out the intent ... it just may be what it appears to be though ... when people tell you who they are believe them
with regards,
Rivervalley....can you loan me a thesaurus?
certainly ... follow the link:
there's a special jingoism edition on-line too if you'd care to look
be well,
I wondered when this meme would be trotted out ... see link
'when is the last time you heard an Irishman bitching and moaning about how the world owes them a living?" The "Irish slaves" meme is a subset of the "white slavery" contemporary discourse which emphasizes class over race and is fueled by a potent cocktail of bad history, false equivalence, conspiracy theories, and reductionist fallacies'
btw, are you a college student
be well,
Let me bow out of this saying I abhor the concept of slavery, but will never sit back and condemn all southerners during the Civil War.
AS Davy Crockett famously said..."You can all go to hell, I'm going to Texas".
Be well yourself.
I guess I'd better go back to college as I have no idea what you said.
really? you brought up the 'Irish slaves' meme so I linked to where that meme comes from and why ... here's another excerpt:
'Such is the case with the myth of "Irish slaves," an ahistorical reimagining of real events weaponized by racists and conspiracy theorists before the Web and now reaching vast new audiences online'
maybe click on the link and, as you said, 'help expand your knowledge'
be well,
GFY
but have a good day
uh oh ... the curse of the incel!
so you didn't read the link?
and here I thought we would eventually discuss Guy Fawkes
but thank you for your considered and erudite response
be well,
NT
I had to look that up too.
I guess I need sa newer version of Encyclopedia Brittanica
a "safe space" while you watch it and a trophy afterwards to say that you did? If someone needs GWTW explained to them, they need WAY more help than a "scholar" is going to provide. Study history! GMAFB!
don't even get that.
Well said!
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