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HBO pulls GWTW . . .

162.232.81.100
Posted on June 10, 2020 at 10:29:26
Billy Wonka
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 We knew it would be labeled a Confederate Monument that had to be taken down. That day has come and HBO has kowtowed to BLM and all the other radicals du jour.

Not to worry. When they come for my copy of 'Birth of a Nation' they will never find it neatly tucked inside my Woodrow Wilson biography.
.............
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I wonder when the burning piles of books will appear...., posted on June 10, 2020 at 10:52:41
TWB
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in the "village square"...SO ridiculously stupid! People trying to re-write history. They will NEVER get my copy of GWTW! NEVER!

 

Umm the fuller story is this is "temporary", posted on June 10, 2020 at 20:11:28
RGA
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 A spokesperson for HBO Max, which like CNN is owned by WarnerMedia, told CNN Business that "Gone with the Wind" is "a product of its time and depicts some of the ethnic and racial prejudices that have, unfortunately, been commonplace in American society."

"These racist depictions were wrong then and are wrong today, and we felt that to keep this title up without an explanation and a denouncement of those depictions would be irresponsible," the spokesperson said.

The spokesperson added that when the film returns to HBO Max, it "will return with a discussion of its historical context and a denouncement of those very depictions," and will be presented "as it was originally created, because to do otherwise would be the same as claiming these prejudices never existed.

"If we are to create a more just, equitable and inclusive future, we must first acknowledge and understand our history," the spokesperson said."


So they have not burned GWTW but as I have said many times about old movies - a modern audience tends to laugh at the silly dialog and ludicrous acting and often stupid plot lines they are a modern audience who are say 18 years old and think of minorities as equals so they need some sort of "context" to older movies (and books for that matter).

Terminology that is racist today was not viewed as racist (at least not by whites) in the 1930s.

And this is only the beginning - Many other films from the past are being held to the Bechdel test

"The Bechdel test, also known as the Bechdel-Wallace test, is a measure of the representation of women in fiction. It asks whether a work features at least two women who talk to each other about something other than a man. The requirement that the two women must be named is sometimes added."

So movies like the The Thing fail right out of the gate since there are no women in the movie.

But films like Raiders of the Lost Ark - which for what it is is deemed a classic also comes under fire to modern audiences because of the way Marion is written and that Indiana Jones initially had a relationship with her when she was underage.

I have an entire book series for children that were called the Value books and each book would teach children about courage or wisdom or whatever. And they would use real life figures like Helen Keller or Jackie Robinson.

BUT because of the language used in these books they can't be used in the modern classroom. It's sad because they're excellent books and like the representative in the above quote - all you really need to do is come up with a statement that reads this is a product of history and this the dual lesson here is that we learn about the history of language usage from these periods of time whether 1930 or 1940 etc.

What should bother all of us is that people are not being taught to contextualize the arts in their time periods. None of these things should be banned - you can watch these older movies and in a very real way see where we have come and indeed how language has changed over time.

This stuff SHOULD be taught in your schools - that you need to put films and books and even music in the culture and context of the ERA they were written in so that some HBO executive doesn't field millions of outraged calls that some 1939 film was racist. These people SHOULD have been taught this in elementary school that this is the way people talked in 1939 - this was the attitude of the white man in 1939. Granted it still is the attitude in many quarters.

The other problem is that political correctness gets to a point where everyone is an eggshell. When a child falls - you pick him up and keep moving. If the parent stops and fawns all over the kid they wind up bursting into tears to get more attention. No - pick up keep going and the kid is probably just fine - you make a big deal the kid will make a big deal.

John Cleese and Bill Maher talk about this over political correctness (usually the ultra far left wing who as Cleese notes has a semi-good idea and then takes it too far)

Edit: The ole saying "If you don't like it, then don't watch it" this applies to the books about transgender rights, and "my two mommies" though which the right tends to want vacated"

Free speech is about the free speech you don't like on either side. So long as it's not hate speech.

 

No big loss, has to be one of the most overrated films ever..., posted on June 10, 2020 at 22:53:27
musetap
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 My wife loves it because it's romantic.

OK, fine.

Historically it is what it is and it should NOT be shelved for that reason.

But it's easily one of the most over hyped, ridiculously self important films ever.

Confederate Monument? Didn't those assholes lose?



"Once this was all Black Plasma and Imagination"-Michael McClure




 

Stay calm..., posted on June 11, 2020 at 05:14:23
MaxwellP
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 That's the point. It's the book and the film that tried to create--or rewrite--a history that didn't exist. It's not censorship; HBO just decided not to carry it. You can still watch from another source.

 

RE: HBO pulls GWTW . . . , posted on June 11, 2020 at 08:16:06
volunteer
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 I've seen it many times in the last 50 years. I can understand why African Americans could find it demeaning. I support BLM but I am not a fan of censorship.


-Wendell

 

Temporarily pulled. Today, it was announced the film will return with a , posted on June 11, 2020 at 10:34:31
tinear
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 scholar giving perspective.
I don't know why this bothers you and others? Certainly, there is little or no objection here to tamping down Holocaust deniers and their material in sixteen countries, including Israel and Germany: are these countries wrong? Can you imagine Israelis tolerating statues (in Israel) that honor German generals? It's about time the US takes full responsibility for the hundreds of years of genocide against African-Americans. Millions and millions of African-Americans died because of slavery.
Why is the attitude of some, "Okay, why can't we just move on from this?" Try saying that to an Israeli sometime. Or an Armenian. Or... a Native-American.

 

Hmmmmmmm,, posted on June 11, 2020 at 11:18:15
oldmkvi
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 Well said!

 

I agree with your entire post, except. . . , posted on June 11, 2020 at 12:11:16
Chris from Lafayette
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 . . . for your spelling of "lose". ;-)

Anyway, Ms. CfL is the same as your wife - she loves GWTW, and I'll never understand what she sees in the darned thing!

 

"scholar giving perspective"... ROTFLOL!.. are they going to provide.., posted on June 11, 2020 at 12:29:04
TWB
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 a "safe space" while you watch it and a trophy afterwards to say that you did? If someone needs GWTW explained to them, they need WAY more help than a "scholar" is going to provide. Study history! GMAFB!

 

Fixed.. thanks!... they DID lose..., posted on June 11, 2020 at 13:32:36
musetap
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 we don't need them on the loose!


"Once this was all Black Plasma and Imagination"-Michael McClure



 

I remember not long ago when it was considered okay to laugh about objections to the "n" word. Some guys still, posted on June 11, 2020 at 15:32:24
tinear
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 don't even get that.

 

The book IS a scholarly perspective. Mitchell wrote it in 1936., posted on June 11, 2020 at 19:44:26
free.ranger
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 The perspective of the period was seen through mid-20th century eyes. Maybe HBO thinks that what went around is coming back around, thus calling for some interference.

I always thought that "Django Unchained" could have benefitted from a little background.

 

RE: The book IS a scholarly perspective. Mitchell wrote it in 1936., posted on June 12, 2020 at 08:09:13
Bill the K
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 I wonder about 'Roots' which has such violence, even the Master selling off the slave's daughter. History?

Bill

 

Historical renderings aside, there are films we will never see made again because they hurt., posted on June 12, 2020 at 08:53:58
free.ranger
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 They all have good aspects, but sensitivities usually don't devolve to tolerate them any more.

GWTW is one. Mandingo, Roots, Blazing Saddles, are some others.

 

RE: Temporarily pulled. Today, it was announced the film will return with a , posted on June 13, 2020 at 06:38:17
troutbum
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 You don't seem to realize that the Civil War wasn't fought over slavery it self, but primarily over state's rights to govern themselves, which was of extreme importance to our (USA) founders. Over 300,000 Confederate soldiers gave their lives for this. I think it is safe to say most of them did not own slaves. My father, and his descendants, were from Texas. He revered and was proud of his southern heritage. He was far from a racist, and thought slavery was horrible. Robert E. Lee owned slaves, yet felt it was unjust and long overdue for a different view and change. His concern was whether a mass freeing of slaves would be detrimental to them as they may not be prepared to fend for them selves. He didn't have an answer for something that was an accepted practice for thousands of years.

As for comparing those from the Confederacy to Nazi Germany ... it disgusts me.

 

RE: No big loss, has to be one of the most overrated films ever..., posted on June 13, 2020 at 06:44:04
troutbum
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 I'm sure this post will get yanked soon, but before it does let me say that you are the asshole!

 

RE: Umm the fuller story is this is "temporary", posted on June 13, 2020 at 06:45:41
troutbum
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 Very well said

 

"Scholarly perspective" means specifically that a scholar wrote it. She was not one. nt, posted on June 13, 2020 at 08:52:17
tinear
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 x

 

What disgusts me is finessing the fact that indeed slavery hung in the balance in this war. , posted on June 13, 2020 at 08:57:22
tinear
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 And that the Southern politicians were the major opponents to civil rights legislation a hundred years after this war. And that this great nation would be now split in two if those cowards and traitors had prevailed. Lee's victory would have meant a continuation of slavery, period.

I very much doubt it would matter to a Jew or a black slave if he were killed in an oven or worked to death in a field. Mass, systematized murder--- both. The biggest difference: slavery lasted several hundred years.

 

RE: What disgusts me is finessing the fact that indeed slavery hung in the balance in this war. , posted on June 13, 2020 at 09:13:20
troutbum
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 I would like to see any documented proof you have that slaves were customarily murdered, vs the Jews by Hitler.

Also, Lee was not alone in the South thinking that slavery was wrong. You have no way of knowing that slavery would have continued in existence. Your assumption that if the Confederacy won would mean slavery would have continued unchanged has no merit. The change in attitude towards slavery almost worldwide changed over time. The South may very well have changed in time as well. Hell, the world, including the defeated North, could have forced it economically. You don't know.

Let me guess....you are a college professor.

 

RE: What disgusts me is finessing the fact that indeed slavery hung in the balance in this war. , posted on June 13, 2020 at 10:25:59
tinear
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 Transporting people across the seas causing massive numbers of their deaths is murder. Working children, women, and men to death is murder. Killing those who seek freedom by escaping is murder.

Your comment about the possible non-continuation of slavery is shocking: do we know anything for certain about the future? Would Hitler have continued to kill Jews, gypsies, Slavs, and others he deemed sub-human, after the war, had he won? Should we have waited to find out?

I don't understand your argument at all, actually. Are you saying we should have let absolute evil continue because you have no idea how long it could last? Or are you saying slavery wasn't evil?

Perhaps you think Lee and Davis were honorable men, even though their support of slavery led to the deaths of hundreds of thousands of their fellow Americans?

 

Agreed. The Union were the traitors . . ., posted on June 13, 2020 at 10:59:17
Billy Wonka
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 who were bending the Constitution over a political/moral issue not a legal one. Yes, slavery is wrong but people do not understand that twenty-six million people are in slavery now (some say it's double that number). Who speaks for them? American blacks don't own slavery.

Most people don't know that Lincoln wanted peace so badly that he would have left slavery in place if a truce had been struck. And, slavery would start petering out by the 1880s due to the mechanization of farming.

I presume HBO was taking a knee with their "temporary" pull of GWTW. Maybe it was for the best. What's going on now is far greater than what went on pre-Civil War.
.............
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RE: Agreed. The Union were the traitors . . ., posted on June 13, 2020 at 11:16:58
rivervalley817
 'The Union were the traitors ... '

historically inaccurate ... look up secession or copy past this link:

https://www.britannica.com/topic/secession

'bending the Constitution'

balderdash! can you provide a citation of what was being 'bent' ... ?

'Yes, slavery is wrong but'

there's no need for a 'but' after that statement

'American blacks don't own slavery'

the irony just drips off of that statement. who does 'own' it here?

be well,








 

RE: What disgusts me is finessing the fact that indeed slavery hung in the balance in this war. , posted on June 13, 2020 at 13:34:52
troutbum
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BTW, it wasn't the Southerners who captured the Africans. It was those that sold to slave traders, or the traders themselves.They then sold to the farmers (ie slaveholders). It would hardly have been in the best interest of slave owners to murder their slaves...perhaps you never took a basic economics course. Many slave traders were black, and, interestingly one of the early large slave traders in America was black.

Another fact for you to help expand your knowledge...hundreds of thousands of Irish were enslaved by the Brits to farm the Carribean Islands. You don't see the Irish burning effigies of the Queen or seeking reparations.

I definitely am an admirer of Lee. He did not think slavery was right. Don't know too much about Jefferson Davis. Lee was not a proponent of slavery, and in fact thought it was wrong. He fought for the Confederacy because of states' rights.

BTW...are you a college professor?

 

RE: What disgusts me is finessing the fact that indeed slavery hung in the balance in this war. , posted on June 13, 2020 at 14:31:47
rivervalley817
 I wondered when this meme would be trotted out ... see link

'when is the last time you heard an Irishman bitching and moaning about how the world owes them a living?" The "Irish slaves" meme is a subset of the "white slavery" contemporary discourse which emphasizes class over race and is fueled by a potent cocktail of bad history, false equivalence, conspiracy theories, and reductionist fallacies'

btw, are you a college student

be well,


 

RE: What disgusts me is finessing the fact that indeed slavery hung in the balance in this war. , posted on June 13, 2020 at 15:15:39
troutbum
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 I guess I'd better go back to college as I have no idea what you said.

 

I think she qualifies., posted on June 13, 2020 at 15:20:08
free.ranger
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 Given that it is a romance novel, not a textbook. Her life was immersed in southern lore and lifestyle, spending much time in association with those who lived the War times or during Reconstruction. Plenty of field study.

I could have said historical instead of scholarly.

Your comments below are on point. There has always been pressure to whitewash southern attitudes regarding the War. Inheriting a culture of treating people like cattle is hard to face down. Today in Germany, the holocaust deniers keep popping up like gophers.

But the fact that it took another hundred years for Civil Rights and Anti-Segregation tells me that not much has changed in the hardcore South. I grew up part time in Mississippi, and vividly recall the separate toilets, sitting areas, fountains, ... all of it.



 

RE: What disgusts me is finessing the fact that indeed slavery hung in the balance in this war. , posted on June 13, 2020 at 15:20:25
troutbum
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 Let me bow out of this saying I abhor the concept of slavery, but will never sit back and condemn all southerners during the Civil War.

AS Davy Crockett famously said..."You can all go to hell, I'm going to Texas".

Be well yourself.

 

RE: What disgusts me is finessing the fact that indeed slavery hung in the balance in this war. , posted on June 13, 2020 at 15:26:00
rivervalley817
 really? you brought up the 'Irish slaves' meme so I linked to where that meme comes from and why ... here's another excerpt:

'Such is the case with the myth of "Irish slaves," an ahistorical reimagining of real events weaponized by racists and conspiracy theorists before the Web and now reaching vast new audiences online'

maybe click on the link and, as you said, 'help expand your knowledge'


be well,



 

RE: What disgusts me is finessing the fact that indeed slavery hung in the balance in this war. , posted on June 13, 2020 at 19:11:16
troutbum
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 GFY

but have a good day



 

ROTFLOL! (nt), posted on June 13, 2020 at 19:16:27
TWB
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 NT

 

No, I'm not a confederate..., posted on June 13, 2020 at 20:42:01
musetap
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 Sounds like you may be though, loser.

Go be a jackass somewhere else, you'll fit right in on Central.


"Once this was all Black Plasma and Imagination"-Michael McClure



 

RE: What disgusts me is finessing the fact that indeed slavery hung in the balance in this war. , posted on June 13, 2020 at 22:05:30
rivervalley817
 uh oh ... the curse of the incel!

so you didn't read the link?

and here I thought we would eventually discuss Guy Fawkes

but thank you for your considered and erudite response

be well,

 

ROTFLOL!...So says the Grand PooBah of...., posted on June 14, 2020 at 03:47:47
TWB
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 A**holes! btw, IC called... they need another post of pics of your chums from Finnochio's....

 

RE: ROTFLOL! (nt), posted on June 14, 2020 at 05:57:59
troutbum
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 I had to look that up too.

I guess I need sa newer version of Encyclopedia Brittanica

 

RE: Historical renderings aside, there are films we will never see made again because they hurt., posted on June 14, 2020 at 06:07:39
RGA
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 It's been a long time but I thought Blazing Saddles was a Satire that made racist white folk look awfully and hilariously stupid. The scene where Cleavon Little holds a gun to his own head "I 'm so smart - and they're soooo Stupid" or however that line went.

I mean Mel Brooks' character was completely inane - who would have thought he would have made a more sound and intelligent 45th?

 

I still don't understand. A (relatively very, very few) black folks , posted on June 14, 2020 at 09:39:54
tinear
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 involved in the slave trade means the hundreds of years of American slavery is okay? And by murder, I never said or meant assassinate. Work to death. That's what happened. Slaves were considered chattel, like dogs or cattle to be bred. Used, bred, discarded. Owned.
You may wish to consider that the Irish were indentured workers: when their work contracts were up, they were free. Their spouses and children also were not automatically slaves. (I am not a professor, for whatever that's worth).

 

RE: ROTFLOL!...So says the Grand PooBah of...., posted on June 14, 2020 at 09:46:13
rivervalley817
 you sure spend a lot of time rolling around on the floor laughing out loud

what must the neighbors think?

the Freudian fascination with sphincters is pretty remarkable too

as always ...

be well,


 

RE: I still don't understand. A (relatively very, very few) black folks , posted on June 14, 2020 at 09:57:30
rivervalley817
 it's either the parroting of a white supremacist meme, proliferation of CT, or a profound misunderstanding of history ... you've dealt with the poster far longer than I, so you'll have greater insight into sussing out the intent ... it just may be what it appears to be though ... when people tell you who they are believe them

with regards,



 

He's a cheerleader like his hero, just not smart enough to Twitter...N/T, posted on June 14, 2020 at 11:09:16
musetap
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 aa
"Once this was all Black Plasma and Imagination"-Michael McClure



 

It's the Return of Troll Without Brains!!!..., posted on June 14, 2020 at 11:11:01
musetap
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 Drunk again?

"Once this was all Black Plasma and Imagination"-Michael McClure



 

You're going to have to do better than that to get through to Mr. Grits ..., posted on June 14, 2020 at 11:14:54
musetap
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 Though you shouldn't have to.

You can take the Mr out of the Grits, but you can't take the Grits out that Mr.

"Once this was all Black Plasma and Imagination"-Michael McClure




 

RE: I still don't understand. A (relatively very, very few) black folks , posted on June 14, 2020 at 11:20:52
troutbum
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 Whoa!!....Tinear, I never said slavery was OK. Good God man! Slavery was terrible...an abomination to mankind. If you read that into my posts, I apologize for leading you astray. Also, I apologize for any insults...heat of the moment for me in these troubled times

To sum it up, I don't believe tat our history should be torn down. I believe the Civil War was over states' rights, with slavery the reason for the disagreement. I think it wrong to consider the 300,000 Confederate soldiers as traitors and slave mongers. My opinion, and shared by many ( although not
this board).

As for slaves vs indentured servants...I think deporting entire families (not always I concede) against their will, to a foreign country to work for as much as 7 years is pretty darn close to slavery. Also, it was not unusual to work these indentured servants to death their final year. We can debate this likely forever.

Let's move on...take care.

 

RE: I still don't understand. A (relatively very, very few) black folks , posted on June 14, 2020 at 11:22:10
troutbum
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 Rivervalley....can you loan me a thesaurus?

 

RE: You're going to have to do better than that to get through to Mr. Grits ..., posted on June 14, 2020 at 11:34:43
rivervalley817
 it's 'curious' that when asked for clarification or a citation from those making provocative baseless assertions, they simply run away ... it's almost as if they're embarrassed by their own opinions, or maybe a seed of self / social awareness taking root

or is that too much hope to hold out?

best regards,


 

RE: I still don't understand. A (relatively very, very few) black folks , posted on June 14, 2020 at 11:42:33
rivervalley817
 certainly ... follow the link:

there's a special jingoism edition on-line too if you'd care to look

be well,

 

RE: I still don't understand. A (relatively very, very few) black folks , posted on June 14, 2020 at 11:44:10
rivervalley817
 there's a beating heart there after all!

regards,


 

Hope is a thing with feathers..., posted on June 14, 2020 at 13:40:16
musetap
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 People with issues change their monikers here from one fake one to another fake one trying to escape their past or reinvent themselves.

But you know, wherever you go, there you are.

Even a thread on GWTW brings out the loons.

Who can figure? We humans are screwy and then some.

"Once this was all Black Plasma and Imagination"-Michael McClure



 

You are too triggered to fool with . . ., posted on June 14, 2020 at 14:29:34
Billy Wonka
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 Ready to fight over something you can't change. Be sure to tear down my tombstone.
.............
Keyboard Warrior Sleeper Cell Member

 

RE: You are too triggered to fool with . . ., posted on June 14, 2020 at 14:36:52
rivervalley817
 I'll never desecrate a grave ...

what is this 'triggered' you speak of?

surely you've encountered what is known as a 'retort' before?

be well,




 

Everything I said is valid . . ., posted on June 14, 2020 at 14:44:52
Billy Wonka
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it all boils down to POV. I'm so curious as to how the entire population of the world doesn't address contemporary slavery. Or, why would people think the tragedy of slavery falls on one particular people?

We don't have a one on one problem, we have a political problem. Here, we have not had a violent protest as yet. That's pretty good.

GWTW was Hollywood creating an idealized setting of grandiose wealth and obsequious manners. Women have long eaten that up especially in the South.

GWTW has been creating its mythic time and romance, innocently, for so long until a few individuals inform/dictate it is bad. This doesn't bode well for the future of film or television.
.............
Keyboard Warrior Sleeper Cell Member

 

RE: Everything I said is valid . . ., posted on June 14, 2020 at 14:54:19
rivervalley817
 that's pretty cogent Mr. Wonka ... enough to concur with that I'll not try to subtract anything ... but allow me to add:

'curious as to how the entire population of the world doesn't address contemporary slavery'

this is actually happening in real time it's just escaped your notice

I appreciate this post of yours even if it wasn't addressed to me

and I like grits

regards,


 

+1 Well stated and I agree 100% (nt), posted on June 14, 2020 at 15:01:25
TWB
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 NT

 

LOL (nt), posted on June 14, 2020 at 15:02:51
TWB
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 NT

 

Cheerleader... N/T, posted on June 14, 2020 at 16:50:06
musetap
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  Since: January 28, 2004
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"Once this was all Black Plasma and Imagination"-Michael McClure



 

RE: Cheerleader... N/T, posted on June 14, 2020 at 17:50:02
rivervalley817
 at least he got up off of the floor

his hysteria seems to be subsiding

progress! or new meds?

either way, progress!

regards,


 

Sorry, but you have to back that up. You can't, obviously. nt, posted on June 17, 2020 at 08:18:49
tinear
Audiophile

Posts: 65782
Location: Kansas City, KS
Joined: April 9, 2006
 d

 

Comedian on Confederacy, posted on June 18, 2020 at 06:07:44
RGA
Reviewer

Posts: 15177
Location: Hong Kong
Joined: August 8, 2001
 seems to make the points of confederacy

 

RE: -1 Poorly stated I disagree 200% (nt), posted on June 21, 2020 at 17:41:40
RGA
Reviewer

Posts: 15177
Location: Hong Kong
Joined: August 8, 2001
 NT

 

Absolutely 100% about slavery , posted on June 24, 2020 at 17:13:41
RGA
Reviewer

Posts: 15177
Location: Hong Kong
Joined: August 8, 2001
 4 star general and history professor at West Point explains why.

Knocks down all of the other arguments.

Col Seidule Professor and Head of Department of History - West Point.

States Rights argument is destroyed. Just people trying to defend their family heritage I suspect.

"The civil war was about states rights. The state's right to have slavery.
Saying a war is about something doesnt mean it is ONLY about that. It means that's the main reason for it and without it there wouldn't have been a war."

 

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