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Denon AVP-A! (AVR-8000) vs Sony TAE-9000ES.Am i upgrading or downgrading ?

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Posted on March 12, 1999 at 01:41:49
Yiangos


 
Hi guys ,

The Sony dealer does not stock the tae-9000es processor,so i am buying blind.I am sure it's surround performance would be great as well as the added bonus of DTS but what really concerns me,is its stereo performance when using it as a pre-amp.Since i am using a hi-end external dac my only concern is it's performance as a stereo pre and not as a dac.I hate to sell my Denon only to find out the Sony is inferior !
Any help would be greatly appreciated !!!

 

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Re: Denon AVP-A! (AVR-8000) vs Sony TAE-9000ES.Am i upgrading or downgrading ?, posted on March 12, 1999 at 06:40:06
Rod M


 
Unless you really need DTS, my gut feel is the move is actually sideways from the viewpoint of 2 channel performance. Different set of features and lights but that's about it.

I've got a digital pre that I use for HT. But I have it integrated with a 2 channel tube pre-amp that I use for 2 channel. If you can swing keeping the Denon and adding a truly good 2 channel pre-amp, then you are more likely to get a significant upgrade.


 

Doesn't make sense to me, posted on March 12, 1999 at 06:51:56
Rich


 

Do you have an issue with the surround capabilities (beyond lack of DTS) of the Denon preamp? I haven't heard the Sony, but based on past experience with Sony audio products, it is doubtful that it sounds as good as the Denon as a stereo preamp.

There's hardly any DTS software available. As such, I don't understand your urgency.

 

Re: Denon AVP-A! (AVR-8000) vs Sony TAE-9000ES.Am i upgrading or downgrading ?, posted on March 12, 1999 at 10:25:40
majordomo


 
I don't thihk the Sony has an analog by-pass for stereo. If this is the case it will re-digitize the analog signal and D/A it again, wich would eliminate the bendfit of your good external D/A. I think it would be a large downgrade. The piece you have now would seem to make more sense.

 

Yes, cannot bypass the Sony DAC. Is that a bad thing?, posted on March 12, 1999 at 12:48:30
Samir


 
Majordomo is correct, you really have to use the onboard DAC on the Sony. However, is that bad? I have the Sony TAE 9000 ES, and I feel it sounds fabulous in stereo. However I have not compared it to Denon or other "super high end" pre amps in my set up. Too bad you cannot compare the sound of the Sony TAe 9000 with its DAC, and compare it with your current set up plus the high end DAC you alreaedy have.

The surround functions of the Sony are excellent. At $1250, it may be worth taking a chance, you could easily resell it if you are not satisfied.

Samir


 

Re: Yes, cannot bypass the Sony DAC. Is that a bad thing?, posted on March 12, 1999 at 14:12:43
Rod M


 
I haven't heard the Sony so I don't know. It's likely quite good.

The problem is that if you have an analogue only source or want to do a DAC upgrade or have a better DAC, then the lack of pass-thru is a big problem. Converting analogue to digital and back again is not good. If you had all digital sources, then the question is different.

 

Thanks guys.I think you've opened my eyes !!! Read on !!, posted on March 13, 1999 at 00:26:58
Yiangos


 
I was going for the Sony just for the sake of upgrading !As for my dac,i am using a Audio Synthesis DAX Decade.We're talking here a better than Theta Gen V dac.The rest of my system is TDL Reference Standard loudspeakers and Musical Fidelity A-370 mk2 power amp.Cables are VDH MC-Silver and XLO Signatures in both h.t. and hi-fi. After reading your comments,i've decided to split my system in two.I mean separate h.t. and hi-fi which i think it would be a great upgrade.I know which cd transport to buy,so what i actually need is a pre and perhaps a better power amp even though the MF is a great one.I am between Audio Research LS-25 and Electrocompaniet EC-4.5.
Any comments or suggestions?

 

Be carefull...., posted on March 13, 1999 at 02:21:19
John hendry


 
I decided to split my system...telling myself I wasn't really into HT and just wanted something that was OK. Now I need another $60,000 just to get to the OK level. This hobbie is addicting! But for $3200 I sure got alot at Onecall...DVD player.....HK reciver.....7 speakers w/duel subs....good system for the bathroom I guess...hehe.
John^^

 

Geez, those grass huts...., posted on March 13, 1999 at 07:14:44
Rod M


 
Must have HUGE bathrooms. How big is the TV in there?

 

Re: Geez, those grass huts...., posted on March 16, 1999 at 17:36:26
John Hendry


 
No TV there...........yet. Hate missing a part while....reading.
The Alantic Tech 350 system is a really good buy for the money....put a pair of Spicas in place of the L&R fronts...better for music, but for HT a no go compaired to having the matching L&R with the matched center speaker, plus they do some things better than the Spicas. Will put my money into a frount Projector before upgrading the sound to the AT 370 or new AT 450EX(better Xovers).
John^^

 

Re: I have the TA9000ES, Samir-please respond.., posted on March 26, 1999 at 08:57:42
RT


 
OK. I wanted to wait for awhile before I posted about my Sony TA9000ES. I am approximately 60 percent home theater enthusiast and 40 percent 2 channel guy. I was very concerned with the quality of the 9000ES since I hadn't ever demoed it before I bought it. I was upgrading from a B&K AVP1000 preamp to the sony to get into DD and DTS. My biggest concern was Sony's lack of an analogue bypass in case I didn't like the Dacs on the Sony. I bought the Sony for $1145 shipped from Oade.com.

My initial impressions are this-The Sony has tons of detail as others have said. My CD’s of Kodo drummers or choral tracks have made individual drum tracks or voices much, much more wonderfully clear. I hear more things from the recording venue. Also, my subwoofer seems to be tighter and better controlled for music and home theater. Things seemed more bloated when using my B&K preamp with my HSU 12va sub. However, on the other hand I feel that I have lost some warmth or depth to the music. I don’t know how to describe it. I’ve played with the crossovers on the sony, and my Proac Resp. 2 speakers sound best when I cross over to the sub at 80 Hz. Things sound truly dry when I cross over much below that. I should also say I have a Toshiba 2109 DVD player that I am using to play my CDs via its digital out into the Sony. My previous preamp (B&K 1000) and a cheap onkyo 5 disk player with no digital out seemed to have more color or warmth to the music.

Why I was hesitant to post so early is because I’m not done tweaking with my system. I did expect a huge difference with the Toshiba/Sony combo versus the Onkyo/B&K combo, but I haven’t heard it yet. Or have I? For home theater, look nor farther than the sony! I would buy one over a lexicon DC1 or DC2 anyday and spend the remaining $3K to better speakers etc.. I’m still wondering about 2 channel. I’ll admit, I don’t have the best CD transport (Tosh. 2109) or even the best amp for my speakers (B&K EX4420). I should say that high end sound just sounds different when your not accustomed to it. For example, when I purchased my Proacs used, I knew their reputation as stellar minis. You got it right that their midrange is some of the best around. But I’ve always struggled with their lack of low end. So this high fi speaker was initially a bit dissappointing to me. I now have a HSU 12va paired with it (using sub out on preamp), and things are much better. The 12va is a monster on home theater, and does very well for stereo. Nonetheless, I may buy an aci titan or rell sub to use exclusively with the proacs down the road (but I digress).

My point is this: I don’t really know if the new sound I am hearing from the Sony is more accurate and “better sound”. Remember, I bought a top quality Proac speaker and it took some adjusting to get used to this “high end” speaker that had no bass. So perhaps I have to adjust to the new sound of the sony, or I don’t have the right components for the task. Perhaps the color or depth I heard with my other system was simply distortion and coloration added by poor dacs? Some have said a good dedicated transport into the Sony would help. Other have suggested a better amp. Articles suggest that a SRS harmonic recovery system would make it sound better. Some would suggest chucking the Sony altogether. Very confusing. I’m thinking of buying a classe cap100 or 150 so that I can keep the sony, use the classe as an amp for HT, then swith it to the integrated amp for 2 channel listening and have a cd player hooked right into the classe.

Anyway- I’ve rambled long enough. I hope others can offer suggestions. I am not degrading the sony, as I haven’t decided if it will meet my needs yet.

Thanks-

RT

 

Re: I have the TA9000ES, Samir-please respond.., posted on March 26, 1999 at 11:20:40
Chuck G


 
I think the key here is using the "ditital out" on the Toshiba DVD player. Let me tell you of my similar experience with my setup. I have the Sony 9000es preamp with B&K amps (3 and 2 channel 125 wpc models)and the NHT VT1.2 system with an Atlantic tech 262pbm sub. I wasn't all that pleased using my Panasonic a110 as the CD transport, which like you, I was using the digital coax from the a110. I also have a Pioneer LD player (504d) and had both digital rf out and ANALOG outs going to the prepro. I get a MUCH smoother sound using the LD players analog output. You may want to try the analog outs on your Toshiba.

I don't know if you have tried switching from the *normal* output of the Sony's preouts to the *low*, but this also seems to have helped my particular situation. I get a cleaner sound using the low output. I had one of the early units of this model (817 serial numbers last 3 digits)and have not tried the upgrade yet but I THINK one of the things the upgrade might do is actually lower the output on the *normal* setting. An initial buzz about this unit was a low output of the preouts but I think in reality (and confirmed by one of the magazine reviews), the unit was probably pumping out at 9v on the normal setting, which is probably why some have a hiss problem (i noticed the hiss at the -25 range with no source playing). It was cranking out too much. When I switched to the *low* output I removed the hiss compleatly. Of course now I am turning the volumn up to around -10 to -5 in most cases, which is about the 3 or 4 o'clock position, but I feel I get the smoother sound with this. The low setting is more than likely the 1v figure that folks were concerned about. I am hoping the upgrade does takes the *normal* setting and drops the voltage output from the 9v of the earlier units to around 3v or so. Hopefully they will leave the low output at 1v. If anyone can confirm this (ones that have done the upgrade), I would like to here from you.

 

Re: I have the TA9000ES, Samir-please respond.., posted on March 26, 1999 at 14:47:05
RT


 
I'll swith to low output tonight. I also plan on demoing a quality cd transport to see if this changes things. If so, I will become a believer that digital transports do sound different. I greatly appreciate your post.

RT.

 

Re: I have the TA9000ES, Samir-please respond.., posted on March 30, 1999 at 06:54:07
Chuck G


 
Did the switch to low output improve your situation? Also, you may want to leave it that way for a few days even a week or so. When I first tried the low output I would switch back to the normal, which is obviously louder (cut the volumn back around -15 lower for the normal output BEFORE switching from the low output for comparison sake), trying to hear the differences (in detail, noise level etc, NOT loudness). I believe using the low output I have equal detail with less noise and it took a couple of weeks to get used to differences in the volumn slope. For most situations i now have the volumn from -15 to -5 (1pm to 3pm position) while in the normal output I had the volumn from -30 to -20 (12pm to 1pm).

 

Re: I have the TA9000ES, Samir-please respond.., posted on March 31, 1999 at 11:34:43
RT


 
I did switch to low output and didn't notice an immediate effect. I haven't had much time to listen to music lately, although I have watched a few movies with friends. Other than having to increase the volume, I didn't notice a big change in sound for home theater. I do hear some static coming from my rear speakers, but I can't tell if it is the recording or my amplifier. My speakers are to the rear corners of the room and about 5 feet back from the couch. Sometimes I have static from the rears and other times none. I only comment on this because I have heard that the Sony is generally dead quiet. However, I have my rears trimmed about 3 db higher than normal because I like the surround effects. When I lower it, it becomes less noticeable. I'll have more time this weekend to listen to music and will try to comment on the voltage change. My hunch is that its still the Toshiba player.

 

I'm back in town, posted on April 6, 1999 at 03:26:35
Samir


 
Sorry it took so long for me to respond. I just got back from Paris, haven’t slept for 2 days, but I had to check out this web site (I missed it while I was gone) and did not want to let you down.

Everyone’s comments are good. I have not tried the preamp output setting to low, but I will. Here are what made a huge difference as I was tweaking the Sony.

Use a digital cable to the Sony preamp. You already know this, but using a normal pair of coaxials won’t bypass the digital to analog conversion. I heard a definite difference when I finally got an optical connector (my CD player only has optical out for digital, otherwise I would have used a 75 ohm coax)

Sound treatments (absorbing panels) were very effective in warming up the midrange. My friends and I noticed this immediately when I had moved the panel away when putting in new speaker wires and at first I was devastated until I realized that the panel was not in place. I made some of the Jon Risch design panels, inexpensive, good looking and effective.

My speakers are biwireable. I did notice a difference. Then I dual amped (doubling the power by using one channel of the amp for the highs, and one for the lows). Bass firmed up even more, and it sounded better. This is a costly upgrade unless you have extra amps around.

I am still trying a bunch of new things. I am getting the updated woofers for my RBH subwoofers, they are lighter, and have a 20% better “qts” factor (whatever that is). I moved my front speakers around again, with interesting results, not yet decided if it is good.

But I will say this: For $1200 this purchase requires no deliberation, you will enjoy this marvelous piece. Home theater is fantastic, and I have not even done the upgrade yet. (See audioreview product review on this). For stereo I don’t know any better, so I am quite happy. But I would not even look at a $3000 lexicon or EAD with the Sony at home. In fact, I could throw the Sony away in a year or two and use the $2000 I saved to buy the next generation stuff.

I am still trying to get more warmth with the set up as well in the midrange. I thought it was the speakers (martin Logan requests), or my Rotel 991 amps, but no one else with those speakers or amps seems to complain about midrange.

Keep me posted. I wish someone would post HOW to do the download into the Sony 9000 so that I could give it a try. I do not want to be without the unit for 2 weeks. I did download the zipped file from a web site onto my computer, but did not know what to do next.

Samir

 

Re: I'm back in town, posted on April 7, 1999 at 04:32:46
Chuck G


 
I haven't done the upgrade either since I don't have any serious problems with my unit. There should be a readme file with the download that explains the process. I've got the file downloaded and it contained the instructions in the readme.

The static you mentioned coming from your rear speakers is most curious. Have you tried switching cables and/or amps for the rears to see if that has an effect on the static?

 

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