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Or should that be Matrix Bloated ?Matrix Unloaded ?
A typical Hollywood sequel where they throw in everything including the fabled kitchen sink.
More digital kung fooey.
More super duper SPFX.
More pseudo metaphysical mumbo jumbo.
More bad acting from Keanu.
More eye candy from Carrie Anne Moss and Monica Bellucci.But not more enjoyable.
cheerio
Follow Ups:
caught myself dozing off in between the fight scenes more than once
good listening- GL
the 'kiss' scene. Would have been a nice touch to see 'human emotions' exhibited between Reeves and a jealous Trinity.
good listening- GL
Too much out-dated 70's Hong Kong Kung Fu style; blocking/fencing off is not needed in actual fighting, every move needed to take care of attack & defense the same time. Read more from Bruce Lee's writing about the art of intercepting fist-Jeet ku Dao.I recalled other movies with car chasing scene performed by French stunt driver, nothing wrong with the American style but seemingly less charismatic car chase.
Scene after scene of heavy content makes watching tiresome.
The group dance is not necessary IHMO.
Video wall of stacked TV sets a reminiscene of the past, but come short of the 40's Metropolis.
Good pounding sound however!
Shallow story.
I hope the W brothers give something new and exciting in the III episode.
The Super human must be slick in every move, they must be able to predict every incoming fist/kick and do even faster and quicker action in response.The agents should be equipped special weapondry to deal to this super human Neo which is seeming more tactile in hand to hand combat. So it should be a programmed, almost perfect human vs perfect machine battle amidst of the "wrong programming". which take us back and relate more to the first episode.
flying in the air brings no thrill, but fly-by-wire thru some medium would be more convincing. In air it should be molecular transfer.
At least there should be more contemporary scientific relevance established and not so established, and known and known to be flawed theories to add into the story.
My personal bias but Matrix reloaded failed itself a suceeding episode as a pure predigree among the well known Sci-fi movies.
I think the DVD version should bring in addition content to supplement/complement the down side.
If Agent Anderson is programmed to win over Neo's fighting programme Neo can overcome by either
1. ReWrite fighting programme
2. Make false moves, to trick and make fun of opponent
3. Avoid body contact, just run for shelter. (remember the the first episode)
But then there are illogical ways too. This would be a thrill to wait and see whether coming in III episode or not.
Absence of bystanders and passabys makes RELOADED a story remotely distanced from viewers perpectives.However, the fluid, slick, quick and direct action moves by Trinity is a perfect 10; clean, mean and dead on all at the same time.
" If Agent Anderson is programmed to win over Neo's fighting programme Neo can overcome by either
'
'
'
2. Make false moves, to trick and make fun of opponent "Like those nasty, taunting Frenchmen in Monty Python and the Holy Grail ?
This option;
"3. Avoid body contact, just run for shelter. "
Is probably the most realistic but would make for a boring movie and a wimpy hero.
:p
cheerio
I read all of the comments in this thread before watching it last night and I was a bit disappointed.As you said, too much kung-fu for anybody but God or Superman.
Effects were good, but don't tell me that the car chases in Ronin weren't more exciting?
Not enough intel on the machines, etc., no more on the cocoons in this installment.
I'll buy the DVD, but I wasn't blown away. I thought X-Men II was more entertaining and even BASIC.
Take care, Chris
I was flipping the channels the other day, and I ran across Keanu's and Winona's "Bram Stoker's Dracula" (a complete misnomer). What a dog that was, I had tried to forget about it---and I am a huge Dracula fan. I don't think ANYBODY in that film bothered to act. It wouldn't have surprised me if Keanu played an air guitar and said, "Drac you're a bitchin' vampire, DUDE"Back on topic---wasn't impressed with the first Matrix (thought it was goofy and scattered), but I'll probably catch this new one on the DVD release just to say I saw it.
The Englisman was not too bad in Coppola´s but you are right the actor and the faked decors ruin this one.
The Brothers love Schopenhaur. Schopenhaur, I should note, wrote his major work (at least in his own mind) before the age of 30. And it shows.From an Introduction to Schopenhaur:
QUOTE
Born in Danzig, Schopenhauer, because of a large inheritance from his father, was able to retire early, and, as a private scholar, was able to devote his life to the study of philosophy. By the age of thirty his major work, The World as Will and Idea, was published. The work, though sales were very disappointing, was, at least to Schopenhauer, a very important work. Bertrand Russell reports that Schopenhauer told people that certain of the paragraphs were written by the 'Holy Ghost.'Schopenhauer's system of philosophy, as previously mentioned, was based on that of Kant's. Schopenhauer did not believe that people had individual wills but were rather simply part of a vast and single will that pervades the universe: that the feeling of separateness that each of has is but an illusion. So far this sounds much like the Spinozistic view or the Naturalistic School of philosophy. The problem with Schopenhauer, and certainly unlike Spinoza, is that, in his view, "the cosmic will is wicked ... and the source of all endless suffering."
END QUOTEThe Matrix (I) employed this rather sophomoric view to good effect. And they added the twist that the rules of the Matrix (Cosmos) could be bent or even ruptured (including the laws of Newtonian Physics) if only one knew how. And I am interested to see where they go with it (if anywhere). But none of this is new. And all of it has had a better exposition (though far less intertaining) before.
En Fin, the philosophical postulation is worth, maybe, 15 minutes at a campus coffee shop (unless one is 12, then it might take a bit more time). The dazzling effects and the twists (the theory for which was explained in the first film) would be probably be better served without the schoolboy musings.
That said, this is the transitional film taking us to episode 3. We must wait for final judgement. Still, unlike starwars, this is not a series of fables for children . . . it is a fable for adolescents. Better, I suppose, as long as they don't feel compelled to run on about it.
the movie is just a spinoff from Descartes' Meditations. The Matrix is the Evil Genius of Descartes, not Schoepenhauer's Cosmos. They even said in the movie that the Matrix needed free will to work. That's why previous versions failed. The so-called Cosmos is void of any freedom to choose. The two do not equate.-NapTime
I was distracted (or in the Gent's).If you are speaking of the speech delivered be "Agent Smith" to the drugged and bound Morpheus in the original film there is no mention of "Free Will", only that the first Matrix was a Utopia which humans rejected because we define ourselves by our suffering ("whole crops were lost"). They simply programmed in a bit of misery. And that is Cosmos. Knox and Schopenaur rampant! I just played the excerpt from the DVD to be sure.
If that is what you were referring to, you are mistaken. Though, I wish not. I can deal with Descartes more patiently than Schopenhaur!
If there is a quote in the 2nd movie that I missed, just tell me where it is. When I buy the DVD I will check it out. I certainly don't intend to suffer through the ill mannered audiences in a NYC theatre again (well, maybe a mid-week matinee).
:-)
They are not the same as choice can be limited and therefore subject to rules (as the architect implied . . . what do you think programming is?) . True "Free will" cannot be.I had been present during that scene when I first saw it but you got me wondering whether or not I mis-heard, so I just saw the film again (rug-rats, obnoxious 20 somethings and all, but it was a gloomy Friday). I did not mis-hear.
I am less damning of the "adolescent philosophising" than I was. Though far from original or profound, it is probably the only way 3/4ths of the audience is ever exposed to the ideas. No wonder they are moved to paroxysms of admiration.
I agree. The architect did not specifically mention free will, but stated that the Matrix depends upon choice, conscious or unconscious, to accept or reject the construct. This choice appears to be real and necessary for system meta-stability. Clearly, the architect has come to accept an oscillating system of growth and destruction in the "real" word in order to maintain stability in the Matrix.There is a persisting mystery regarding Zion and its relationship with free will...
I can only guess that Zion is necessary as the only way an individual can opt out of the Matrix and survive in the real world. An interesting twist is if Zion itself is "real" or just another "level" of the construct. Does the existence of free will depend on a true "out" or is it just a choice between two options of simulated life. How is it that the enslaved humans can instinctively distinguish these possibilities? If Zion is "simulated", then why does it need to exist at all, as choices can be made within the Matrix?
If Zion is "real", how is it that Neo is able to stop the "Squiddies"? He notes, just before this event, that he can now "feel" them, and apparently has the sudden insight that his powers may be functional outside of the Matrix (if he's really outside the Matrix).
It will be interesting to see how this question is resolved.
My guess is just like he is able to decipher code and fight the agents on their own terms, he has learned how to harness his electrical energy and use it as a weapon. Perhaps through a higher level of consciousness he has deciphered the way his body works on the cellular level. Maybe hacked his own programming?
Or maybe Neo was hacked by Persephone. She applied lipstick before the kiss, the music became a little more dramatic during the kiss.
i want to disagree again. i don't see it by any means as adolescent philosophising.it's as good art-philosophy as anything else.
i noticed on the board here though that there is not a full appreciation of philosphising. i think there is a staid view of philosophy. i don't quite understand the attitude but i'm not familar with the lack of feeling of vitality towards ideas.
you are probably not a fan either of rubert sheldrake. he's the man.
actually i'd have to think if they have incorporated any of his ideas into the matrix movies. it seems it could be so.
they are made for each other, it would seem.
It does not matter if a choice is limited to a specific set of alternatives (in the case of the doors, there are two). As long as the actual choice made remains unpredictible, it constitutes an act of free will.The reason the Matrix is going to fail for the 7th time, according to the Architect, is that the choice Neo always makes IS predictable, representing a flaw in the design (i.e. no real choice is made). Of course, there are arguments out there that omniscience and choice (or free will) can coexist, but whether the Brothers take this into consideration remains to be seen in the final movie.
though now that I think about it, there is the slight possibility that he was lying, but it would take a very bizaare twist in the plot to explain those doors.
i disagree with what you say and your approach.first to call something adolescent is a problem itself in philospohical discourse. isn't that called the straw man fallacy?
also, you are trying to say a = b, where 'a' is schopenhaur's philosophy and 'b' is the philosophy in the matrix movie. because you say the directors 'love' the philosopher's ideas.
unfortunately that does not prove your premise.
actually it's impossible to prove your premise.
i think you are trying to say or imply that thought does not progress. that's the idea of a machine, not a human. so you must be an agent. :)
i see the matrix as a outstanding critique of current society, and its attempt to control individuals and thoughts.
i think alot can be written and said about it and i understand there are college courses on it. which does not prove anything of course, but it's there.
i hope people can see the weaknesses in your argument and what you are attempting to do in your argments.
i see that you are in the 'adult' world is suppose and those who see
the significance of the matrix idea are in the adolescent world.lol, damm.
you must be an agent sent by the matrix to protect it by trying to discredit a vehicle to take people out of the matrix. a propaganda, disinformation machine.
but i think it is said somewhere in the second movie that it's just impossible to do so. the rebellion against the matrix cannot be stopped.
so you know part 3. the matrix will eventually fall. there will never be a perfect world where all humans and all human thoughts can be controlled.
Nothing is ever proved in philosophy (or logic . . . even a perfect syllogism can be wrong) and my point was not philosophical, it was an observation of a pseudo-philosophy that borrows heavily from a philosopher loved by the brothers. Not "a=b" as you state, but that "a is similar to b" (or perhaps even "contained of b").I am merely pointing out the obvious parallels. If you fail to see them I leave you to your own serenity.
"i think alot can be written and said about it and i understand there are college courses on it. which does not prove anything of course, but it's there."
I don't doubt it. In a world where 18 year olds with no worldly experience are allowed to choose their curriculum very silly things happen. This is actually a minor offender compared to other things I've seen.You attribute to me the notion that "thought does not progress". My response is that there are very few new notions (especially philosophical notions) in the world (and none in either of these two films). Ideas are sometimes packaged in different ways and may have slightly different flavours. In fact, the person who has the thought may not know of the previous exposition but it is virtually always there. Some of these particular ideas were present in "pagan" religions long before Schopenhaur wrote about them, not to mention the Brothers.
There are other far more sinister ideas in the movie that almost no one talks about, even amongst the critics. viz. "Those poor, dumb police are ignorant dupes of the machines and it is perfectly OK to kill them by the score. After all, we know the real truth!" Substitute "Jews" for "police" and "International Zionist Conspiracy" for "machines" and you could have a latter day "Mein Kempf". Why no one finds that disturbing (at least amongst the people who take these two films seriously) is beyond me.
I don't find it disturbing myself. But that's because I don't take the films seriously
It's quite a leap to arbitrarily substitute "Jews" for agents & "International Zionist Conspiracy" for the machines.
you are much more reasonable in your second post here.i'm not up to going deep into the issues tonite.
the matrix has people locked in cacoons and the machines are feeding off their energy. don't they have a right to free themselves of it?
who came looking for who? aren't the agents trying, and are programmed, to destroy the rebelling humans.
what's interesting about the film too is that human nature works both for and against the humans. the guy who said he should have taken the blue pill instead, for odd reasons, turned against his fellow humans.
to me, the first matrix movie is an incredibly revealing film philosophically. i understand too, the film was embraced by some buddhist group since the idea that we are really not awake is part of their philosophy.
but then, something can come along and be this revealing and it can be discarded by many, confused by many, and obfuscated by many. my original reaction was to rebel against this lessening of the film.
i like the idea by the russian philosopher ouspensky who said that esoteric knowledge is really there and available to all but people just don't tap into it.
> > > > i see the matrix as a outstanding critique of current society, and its attempt to control individuals and thoughts < < < <Aldous Huxley would have been proud...?
have to do w/sci-fi, really? (And in this case, interminable amounts of both.) I mean, how many times did Neo beat up Smith? Ho hum, hum, hum, etc. (thousands of times).
And then, what was the shit-colored, cave version of Woodstock all about?
You know a movie's in trouble when the characters stand around repeatedly to mouth speeches that exceed those of any Shakespearean character ( in length, of course, not quality...).
Morpheus looked like he has spent the past four years in the buffet line, as well.
May tricks, indeed.
The worst movie in many a month.
i like your humor."what was the cave scene about?"
i liked that scene. it kind of reminded me of an ant colony.
"morpheus looked like he spent the past 4 years in a buffet line". lol, yea but he's got it. him and neo were very well chosen actors. they got it.
i'm starting to think this movie is better than i originally thought. lots of things to think about.
i think the idea of them leaving their bodies on the ship and the bodies vulnerability was more interesting and felt in this movie, as opposed to the first. there is some type of primordial reaction of fear to this.
perhaps we really can astral project and this was done. and leaving the body during sleep left it in a certain type of vulnerability. and we still have a primordial fear to this.
first i didn't like the way i was thrust right into this movie. seems that you had to be well aquainted with the first one, and the beginning is without good definition.i was feeling like this is like a nice diner the next day. it's leftovers. a sequel does not have the original insight. i realized immediately it could never be as good as 'the matrix'.
!!!!!!!feeling too that the sequel is there because of commercialism, not because the matrix concept needed to be advanced!!!!!!!!
the movie does not become worthy until the fight scene with the 100 of the same guy. then it begins to become something.
then it follows the action, non-action sequence of scenes like the first one.
some of the action scenes in this film are way better than the first one. some of the best action scenes ever including the highway scene.
i like the development of neo's and morpheus's abilities.
the movie starts out a bit dark but opens up into a good sci-fi movie.
i particularly like the oracle scene on the park bench. nice and bright. i think there's alot of meaning there.
the film is a bit like a mobius(sp?)strip, or an escher painting when you realize you are being taken for a ride. it leads you on and on. a nice ride.
no matrix but overall a nice film for one or maybe two viewings. maybe two or so because i do owe it to myself to figure it out better if it really lends itself to doing so.
amd i admit i'm a touch biased. i am a bit of a fan of matrix and it having a sequel.
but kind of like liking a particular band, and then liking all their albums since you are a fan. but years later, people know the group really only had one good recording.
Hey John,> > first i didn't like the way i was thrust right into this movie. seems that you had to be well aquainted with the first one, and the beginning is without good definition.
Totally agree.
> > the movie does not become worthy until the fight scene with the 100 of the same guy. then it begins to become something.
Well, I was just rather bored with the fight scene part.
> > then it follows the action, non-action sequence of scenes like the first one.Agree. Very good point you make here.
> > i particularly like the oracle scene on the park bench. nice and bright. i think there's alot of meaning there.
Me too. What'd you think of the scene with the guy in the room with the hundreds of video monitors? Enormous amount of dialogue which I was impressed by but could hardly keep up with. (I had brain surgery in January; maybe my brain has just overly slowed down? :-) Anyhow this is the main part I want to go over on a DVD someday.
Oracle scene is maybe the best in the movie. One question: I didn't see him EAT the candy, so kept thinking he was gonna eat it at some later cliff-hanging scene in the movie. Did I just miss seeing him eat it?
Thanks for your quick post, John, you fellow Jerseyite you. (I'm in Lambertville).
Bill
hi bill, i'm in chilltown if you know what city has that nickname.'well, i was just rather bored with the fight scene'.
the ones up to that point were mundane but i thought this was where the movie was moving to another level. the way the agents were bounced around like balls off a bat was the first awesome scene to me.
video monitor scene. i would guess that he was showing the many false selves of neo with perhaps there being only one true self. the one that they focused in centrally. very interesting choice neo was given and he made the right choice.
i also wan't really tuned into what the guy was saying about how the matrix went through some revisions to cope with human nature.
the oracle scene: incidently wasn't red was the choice of the pill in the first movie to get them out of the matrix, so maybe what you are saying that it may have more relevance.... wasn't this candy shaped a little like a chromosone?
i thought it was a little contrite when she said 'i like candy'. trying to convey a zen message that the reason you should do what you do is to enjoy the moment.
but overall the scene was one where time almost stops still, and real life shows a glimpse.
I didn't notice any contrition from the Oracle on that park bench.And yes, they were little red pills, and no, Neo did not eat one.
The Oracle's "sweet tooth" was hardly the tritest moment in MR IMO. That honor would have to go to the Rave in Zion.
I agree about the rave/sex scene... I kept wondering when it would end. I did enjoy the movie overall... I thought it was fun, but not as deep as the first (to be expected).
you could see it with swordfish, the potential of these directors for action.enjoy it, enjoy its happening.
i was there for 'the exorcist'. stood in line for an hour or so on a cold nyc night.
i was there for star wars, or whatever the one was with the forest scene.
and now i just got reloaded.
there's some kind of movie history going on. enjoy it.
what the hell the movie was really about. It pissed me off just as much as the first one. FX was superb, maybe they should have made it a silent movie? (For the first ten minutes I thought this was a soul movie. All it needed was Pam Grier.)Moss looked pretty haggard and Monica porcine. What gives with that?
Interesting take on an epic theme =Good.
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Obvious digital micro-pixelated detail of Keanu and Agent/s fight scenes that still lacked CGI refinement =Matrix glitch?
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Boringly predictable Merovingian henchmen vs. Keanu fight scenes =They just ripped themselves off (from the 1st one) Nothing new here. Creepy Twins vs. Trinity & Co. diff. story (except when agent jumped on car - look at his face = again, pixelated)
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Belucci looks tired, weary, and wrinkled. A stark contrast from her enigmatic aura (and luscious-creamy skin) as a 'good witch' in "The Brotherhood of the Wolf".= Dissapointing.
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The Oracle (R.I.P - in real life)
God bless her soul.
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Stolen from game console sci-fi effect scene intro:The landing of Nebuchadnezzer into Zion's docking station when being guided by 'jacked-in' air traffic controllers and ground crew in 'mecha' type suites ala Sigourney in "Aliens". I actually liked that scene better than the hyped up Multi-Agent Smith brawl.
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Most disturbing thing:All of their 'self-image' in the Matrix has 'one' fashion guru/designer?
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i got tickets for tonite at 10:00. rarely would i go to the theaters anymore, but this is special. not expecting too much, but hoping it's as philosophically significant as the first one.i don't care what others have to say about it's philosophy. i'm my own expert, and i know the value of the first one.
anyone who swears by the first one and doesn't care for the second one, i'll believe. but if you don't like the first one you don't have a clue.
swordfish had some impressive stuff but it was no where near the matrix. i'm hoping the directors can get their magic back.
Hey njjohn, I'd be interested if you could post a few comments on the Matrix movies' philosophical significance.I just saw Reloaded last night, and while I was quite bored with the technical martial arts, I was quite taken with the philosophical dialogues. Not that I "understand" them.... Let's just say I'm thinking of watching again when it gets made a DVD, where I can just buzz on past the flying-body stuff.
And I will shamefacedly admit that I was just about floored by the technical virtuosity of the car, truck & motorcycle scene. My jaw dropped.
Looking forward to your post,
Bill
to be honest, i didn't understand this one like i did the first one. the first one is philosophically significant, very much a great critique of our society.i got more than the problem of not getting the same insight as i did about the first movie.
the other problem is i don't have a handle on my insight into the first one. i'd have to see it again.
then again this is the fact that i'm human.
i did love the way that petty human emotions were there among many of the humans. right in the smack of things.
i'll write a short review above.
Big up to the fight choreographer because the action was so smooth and so believable (except the flying sh!t). The car motorcycle scene was awesome, where and how did they shoot that? I cant wait for the DVD to come out so they can explain it. The movie is all action for about the first 80% and then they drop a bomb on you and fry your brain. Im stil going through that stuff in my mind. I actually thought about the reality of the world we live in a long time before "The Matrix" came out. In high school (9yrs ago)I had too much time and too many drugs on my hands. Stuff like that can blow your mind like a bad trip. I like it but the average fan might not be able to follow it.
i think you are on to something. drugs can open up the 'doors of perception'.all those doors. only one opened up to the light.
Badly-paced, and that determinism vs. existentialism mumbo jumbo was almost put me to sleep.
z
cause versus choice.i thought that wasn't one of the better issues.
i din't like that either.
throwing everthing in but the kitchen sink.
i agree that was a distraction.
nt
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