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In Reply to: RE: I'm FINALLY going to see The Godfather..... :-( posted by NuWave on September 11, 2008 at 08:02:28
had complete artistic freedom, and in it he attacked the Japanese syndicate, the Yakuza, as having a false brotherhood and being nothing but a murderous, malicious, disease upon society.
Contrast that with the American love affair with gangsterism which came about at some point during the Wild West, well before it reached fever pitch with the Roaring 20s, Capone's Chicago, and then later on with the competing big city families spread throughout the land.
"Drunken Angel" is a far greater film than the Godfather trilogy because it shows mankind can rise above base instincts.
The Godfather, no matter what Copolla says, glorified murderers, casting the two most charismatic American actors of its generation and showing them as brave family men (with faults, sure).
It is amoral garbage, for all of its obvious artistic merits. That it is so praised, with no discussion of its absolute meaning, shows how corrupt this society truly has become.
Follow Ups:
NT
How can you discuss the Godfather trilogy, claim that it reflects "how corrupt this society truly has become," and not mention Sicily?
*
"Whoever undertakes to set himself up as a judge of truth and knowledge is shipwrecked by the laughter of the gods." - Albert Einstein
it is about an AMERICAN family in America. The Sicilian part of the film is but a moment.
Jewish, Colombian, African-American.... it doesn't matter. The members of ANY organized crime syndicate are human garbage and do not merit worship, which is what Coppola grants them.
nt
d
"My God, sex and gratification? What next,war, invasion of foreign lands, spreading the Gospel of Christ and Democracy/Free Markets?"
Let the spinning begin...
a comparison of the topics listed, not a review of the treatment in the film. I thought that was quite obvious.
... are very moral films or, probably more accurately, films about morality, deeper than they seem, once you get over the surface glitz or yukkiness (depending on your politics!).
...at least GF 1 and 2, as 3 is a more or less failed film and an afterthought.I thought the GFs showed the darkness and greed at the heart of the "American Dream", how power without limits corrupts, how the greed emotionally bankrupted the tale's hero (Pacino's character). I don't feel the principals need to be "redeemed" in the least - that would undermine the point. It's meant to be an Amerian tragedy.
It's entirely appropriate to cast the appealing Pacino as the lead - audiences would't emotionally invest in the character otherwise. Coppola wants us to see the promise as well as the fall. Evil seldom wears an ugly face, especially ordinary evil. Charisma isn't limited in RL to just good guys.
The American fascination with violence and gangsters on the big screen demands a book length essay on its own. But I think one reason for this country's obsession with gangsterism is that it's the dark reverse image of the American dream, the flip coin of entrepenurial spirit - capitalism unbridled and power unfettered.
The GFs aren't my favorites either, my favorite Coppola movie is The Conversation.
A brilliant portrait of corruption and how it changed a good man into a monster. It is far from morally ambiguous.LITTLE CAESAR told essentially the same story in 80 minutes.
I thought the GFs showed the darkness and greed at the heart of the "American Dream", how power without limits corrupts, how the greed emotionally bankrupted the tale's hero (Pacino's character). I don't feel the principals need to be "redeemed" in the least - that would undermine the point. It's meant to be an Amerian tragedy.
****Yes, Coppola showed the darkness and greed but almost as good attributes: Michael is a war hero, he fights against the terrible other family with its murderous, sneaky ways, he is victimized by that terrible Irish captain (we're obviously meant to hate this guy), then we're caught up in his "righteous" revenge. We are, quite obviously, being played by the director into rooting for this murderous young thug. He is portrayed as unselfish (giving up the life he wanted to help his family), brave! in taking on the murderous rivals, protective in risking his life to protect his father and then killing his attackers, and a good businessman, cold and dispassionate in contrast to his foolhardy, overly violent brother.
Yeah, we see Michael later on as having horrible traits, but we're already empathic to him and his methods. What else could he have done, have become? HE'S a victim! Look, even his brother is a whiny, slimy creature so that when Michael commits fratricide, the audience almost applauds the worm's death.
It's entirely appropriate to cast the appealing Pacino as the lead - audiences would't emotionally invest in the character otherwise. Coppola wants us to see the promise as well as the fall. Evil seldom wears an ugly face, especially ordinary evil. Charisma isn't limited in RL to just good guys.
****His father, DeNiro and Brando, are cast as great guys, defenders of their families and neighborhoods. Why, they're almost good, for chrissakes, not touching drug business! Michael also becomes a tragic figure, his wife being killed by cruel murderers. Don't you realize how manipulative the film is? No matter how bad Michael is, his tormentors, be they politicians or other syndicate figures, are worse. In effect, by default, Michael is the best guy in the film.
The American fascination with violence and gangsters on the big screen demands a book length essay on its own. But I think one reason for this country's obsession with gangsterism is that it's the dark reverse image of the American dream, the flip coin of entrepenurial spirit - capitalism unbridled and power unfettered.
****There were plenty of gangster films of the 30s and 40s which depicted criminals in a truer light, truer in terms of morality. What this film seems to be saying (to me, of course) is that Michael is no better or worse (that by extension, the organized crime world) than an executive or leader in another profession.
I'd take major exception with that outrageously cynical and contemptible belief.
...I think you've misread the films, and Coppola's intent. We're just gonna have to disagree on this one.
The Corleones are most definitely not the good guys. They have money, power, a certain glamour - they love their families and are nice to their dogs (not so kind to horses). They're 3 dimensional humans, but profoundly flawed. They're not monsters but they commit monstrous acts (directly or indirectly).
I'm quite familiar with gangster movies and noirs from the thirties on. Coppola chose a pulpy book of fiction and turned it into an operatic morality tale. But he didn't make the Corleones good guys. I honestly don't understand how anyone could think that after seeing the films.
d
Japan, Russia, Italy, Eastern Europe, and other regions all deal with organized crime. All gangs achieve their unity based on an appeal to their own twisted view of honor and loyalty. We are no more or less obsessed than any one else. Your attempted link to "the flip side of the American dream" is juvenile, at best.
*
"Whoever undertakes to set himself up as a judge of truth and knowledge is shipwrecked by the laughter of the gods." - Albert Einstein
It is not anyone's responsibility to make films with a moral perspective
of which you and your illiberal buddies approve.
Mike
...on the other hand Scorsese's "Gangs of New York" (2002) presented an interesting slant on the moral high ground perspective. That film's view that no factional organization is totally free of corruption, which basically make them only gangs like any other, was pretty illustrative especially in todays politic climate - as you've pointed out.
Gangs and grief shape cities like NYC, acting like fertilizer to some extent.
I find the Godfather trilogy hard to watch, although I greatly enjoy Copolla's other works.
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