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In Reply to: RE: Didn't work for me posted by Analog Scott on January 29, 2012 at 20:01:41
fights, were the best, PERIOD.
The woman is a legitimate star in full contact martial arts contests: there is no FAKEY speeding up: you're seeing fights in real time, with real sounds. You probably are so used to the Bourne and other CGI-assisted stuff that you don't know what REAL is supposed to be.
She did all her own stunts. She's the real deal. She's eat Damon, Craig, Diesel, and the Transporter guy in one painful (for them) sequence.
Follow Ups:
"fights, were the best, PERIOD."
No, they were terrible
"The woman is a legitimate star in full contact martial arts contests:"
Yes she is, as are many of the actors and stunt doubles one finds in any number of other film fights.
"there is no FAKEY speeding up: you're seeing fights in real time, with real sounds."
No you are not seeing them in real time. They are edited and shot from different angles after being choreographed and rehearsed. there is nothing real about it. It is stage fighting.
"You probably are so used to the Bourne and other CGI-assisted stuff that you don't know what REAL is supposed to be."
No, as a fan of real martial arts and filmed martial arts I know what I am looking at. In this case it is poorly shot, poorly choreographed and sadly, poorly executed fight scenes that were stilted and boring. A pretty hard combination to achieve in this genre.
"She did all her own stunts. She's the real deal. She's eat Damon, Craig, Diesel, and the Transporter guy in one painful (for them) sequence."
Yeah she's the real deal. But that clearly wasn't enough. Oh and by the way, there have been plenty of vastly superior martial artists in any number of other fight scenes in other movies. She is pretty far from exceptional. It all looked fake. There were gross problems in the execution of the choreography, It was shot and edited piss poorly. The choreography was boring and at the same time comically contrived.
what constitutes "real," regarding the larger issue. Bourne? Realistic to you? All the rapid cutting, speeding up and slowing down?
James Bond? No. Same problem.
Again, Gina's fights weren't artificially speeded up and down w/a 1000 cuts.
This was old-timey, low-tech. Editing was great, it looked brutal. Fights went on w/out the MTV-millisecond edit. It felt brutal. What other star has chops like her (female)? None. I can't think of a major Hollywood male, either, so feel free to mention one who's gotten into a professional fight.
You miss the point by mentioning doubles/stunts. She didn't need one--- no turning aside, no shots from the rear of the action. She was the "actor."
As far as her acting chops, one doesn't see these films for that.... Let's face it, Jason ain't Olivier, either.
And then there's Soderbergh, a far better director than usually takes these films:
(from an interview w/him)
"With a real fighter, you do get to execute some pretty serious fight scenes.Very early on, we decided we wanted to keep them as realistic as possible. No wirework. Nothing that you couldn't actually do. And as a result, the fights aren't very long, because what we learned is that if you're gonna keep it real, and these people are only doing what they can do, it doesn't drag out for very long.
Steven Soderbergh built a movie around pro fighter Gina Carano.You built a cast around her—of guys who wouldn't mind being beaten up by a girl?
Yeah. And also who were—we didn't want to be using doubles and cheating and cutting away. So these guys really needed to know how to do it. I mean, God, Fassbender, she really put him through the wringer. That was a pretty intense two days. Depending on the shot, he may have a pad here or there, but she's really strong. During training she accidentally knocked out one of the stunt coordinators. She was constantly telling Channing [Tatum], "You're not—you need to hit me harder. Stop pulling it." It's just really, really satisfying to see a woman beat up on guys like that."
WSJ
I sense we'll not agree since we obviously disagree about what constitutes quality editing, fight choreography. I'd just note that the New Yorker's reviewer agrees with me... he may know something about editing and such, but what the hell...
Edits: 01/31/12
> > what constitutes "real," regarding the larger issue.> >
When did this become the issue? The answer is simple though and self evident. "Real" would be believable. If that is the criteria... Not many movies aim for actual realism. When the style of the movie demands it then realism is important. If that is how you gauge fight scenes you should have been disgusted with Haywire. It was pretty far from realistic.
> > Bourne? Realistic to you? All the rapid cutting, speeding up and slowing down?> >
Why do you keep on bringing up the Bourne movies?
> > James Bond? No. Same problem.> >
I'm no fan of James Bond movies but the first fight scene in Casino Royale was both more realistic and far superior to any of the fight scenes in Haywire.
> > Again, Gina's fights weren't artificially speeded up and down w/a 1000 cuts.> >
Perhaps they should have been. Maybe they would not have looked as blatently choreographed and under rehersed. I mean the way they shot and edited it you could see each person waiting to take their turn and waiting for the other person to be ready to respond. It was really bad.
> > This was old-timey, low-tech. Editing was great, it looked brutal.> >
IMO The editing sucked along with the cinematography and the fights looked choreographed.
> > Fights went on w/out the MTV-millisecond edit. It felt brutal.> >
Maybe to you. Not to me.
> > What other star has chops like her (female)? None. > >
I don't make special catagories for female fighters. But there have been others with all her skills and more.
> > I can't think of a major Hollywood male, either, so feel free to mention one who's gotten into a professional fight.> >
Seriously? ever heard of this guy named Chuck Norris? By the way, since when is Gina Carano a "major Hollywood star?" There have been a lot of martial artists with far more creditials in the fight game and in the film game than Gina Carano.
> > You miss the point by mentioning doubles/stunts.> >
I didn't miss any point. I have an opinion on the quality of the fight scenes.
> > She didn't need one--- no turning aside, no shots from the rear of the action. She was the "actor." > >
You might want to check the credits of the movie...
> > As far as her acting chops, one doesn't see these films for that.... Let's face it, Jason ain't Olivier, either.
And then there's Soderbergh, a far better director than usually takes these films:
(from an interview w/him)
"With a real fighter, you do get to execute some pretty serious fight scenes.
Very early on, we decided we wanted to keep them as realistic as possible. No wirework. Nothing that you couldn't actually do. And as a result, the fights aren't very long, because what we learned is that if you're gonna keep it real, and these people are only doing what they can do, it doesn't drag out for very long.> >
So Soderberg made a stylistic choice and then dropped the ball with it. There was nearly nothing organic about those fights. they clearly were using well staged moves from Muy Thai and Ju Jitsu, the two styles of martial arts Gina Carano is well schooled in. When those moves are done in real life they look and feel totally different. And naturally, everyone took far more of a beating than they ever could in real life. Add to that the obviousness of each person taking their turn and waiting for the other to be ready and then shoot it from a distance with little editing so we can plainly see all the problems and you have lost any sense of realism. Soderberg's lack of experience in shooting fight scenes showed itself very clearly. they aren't real, they are choreographed and the film makers have to hide that fact with shot selection and editing.
> > Steven Soderbergh built a movie around pro fighter Gina Carano.> >
Everybody makes mistakes...
> > I sense we'll not agree since we obviously disagree about what constitutes quality editing, fight choreography. I'd just note that the New Yorker's reviewer agrees with me... he may know something about editing and such, but what the hell...> >
Or he may not. The two of you are entitled to your opinon as am I.
believable in his fight scenes in Casino??? (Next up, you'll be bringing up Steven Seagal!)
If there is one thing that film didn't portray, it was reality in any form. A guy being resuscitated and then partying on? A building collapsing but he comes through it? Righto!
What's with the current crop of 5 and a half feet "tough guys," anyway?
Cruise.
Statham.
Craig.
Carano, at 5'8", 145-lbs, would whup all three and have energy left over for some more parkour: that was great in the film, too, btw.
> > I can't think of a major Hollywood male, either, so feel free to mention one who's gotten into a professional fight> >That was what you said Tin. I mentioned one. One with far greater martial arts credentials than Gina Carano. If you don't like his fight scenes then it pretty much underminds your own premise that Carano is good because she is the real deal.
And yeah, the fight scene in the bathroom in the begining of Casino Royale is far more believable than anything in Haywire. Have you seen that fight scene? Sadly the movie fell apart all over itself shortly after that scene. But that scene was absolutely top flight in terms of visceral impact and realism. Thanks in no small part to how well it was shot and edited.
> > If there is one thing that film didn't portray, it was reality in any form. A guy being resuscitated and then partying on? A building collapsing but he comes through it? Righto!> >
Are you even paying attention to what I am writing? I was pretty clear in citing the first fight scene in the bathroom and claiming the movie falls apart after that. So why bring up scenes that I have clearly exluded from my example? By the way don't be so sure that carano could take Statham in a real fight. He does have plenty of martial arts experience
Edits: 02/01/12
Not your fault.
;D
point taken
She needs time, but may turn out to be awesome.
Fight scenes at her stage are generally limited to one or two moves, then a cut. Real figthing is almost similar: Move, move, reset.
As she gets more comfortable with the concept, you will see longer and better sequences. Kind of like how many dancing actors evolved in the 30'sd and 40's.
Check the early movies of any of your favorite fight scene performers and, in general, you will see this trend.
This Forum seems to be all about fights and tits. Jeez...
I don't blame Gina Carano for the shortcomings of the fight sequences. First and formost I blame the cinematography and editing. It showed the fights for what they were, staged fights. second I blame the fight choreography. I have no doubt that under the right conditions Gina Carano would be an awesome action actress. She certainly needs to work on her acting chops but she did quite well IMO for someone who has never acted before.
Gina Carano was not an issue.
d
Sex Lies and Video Tape, The Limey, Traffic...all terrfic movies. So yes he does have talent. But he misses as much as he hits. This time IMO he missed. Just like he did on Solaris, Contagion, The informant....
Bottom line is everytime a film maker puts something out it has to stand on it's own. previous credits don't polish turds.
Spielberg did Jaws, Raiders of the Lost Ark, Close Encounters of the Third Kind, Schindler's List etc.
War of the Worlds and Indiana Jones IV still sucked.
...the fight scenes to me seemed "believable" - that she could really kick those guy's butts.
Much more so than with Angelina or other female action leads.
Perhaps it was her physical size, musculature or just the way she moved.
I really enjoyed her and the movie.
No doubt she could take Ewan Mcgregor. I would not be so sure she could take on Fassbender. My money would be all over Chaning Tatum, he is just to big and athletic and knows enough martial arts. Tim Connelly? Let's get real.
But it does not matter. what does matter was just how plainly staged the fights looked. There was no suspension of disbelief for me. none.
The fact that something like salt was even worse does not make much of a case for excellence with Haywire.
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