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I really am getting rather tired of all this silliness where a thread gets going on the shortcomings of the current 'regular' Blu-Ray players, and yet the very people who complain about the players will say they won't buy the PS3 'because it is a game console' or similar....
Now, around here, people like things that work; we all love good Hi-Fi and video playback. So why is there this resistance?
Is it an age thing? People don't want something in their stately set-up that 'the young punks' use for silly games?
I am 48 years old. I never have and most likely never will touch a video game. When we got the Panny 700 58-inch, after reading about all the various standalone players out there, the only one that won and won again was the PS3. It has performed flawlessly, consistently, and I have yet to have it reject or refuse a properly mastered disc.
I am curious at the kind of 'open-ended' resistance to a unit that demonstrably is a solid performer where it counts (DVD/Blu-Ray playback) so at the risk of digging up dirt that's been dug many times before, what are the concrete reasons that you folks don't want the PS3, and if the reason is that 'it's a game console', why is that a deal-breaker?
Please take this in the spirit intended; I just think it might be a good idea for the answers to be lined up once and for all, since this subject goes around and around...
CC.
Follow Ups:
Hi All,
Just wanted to say 'thank you' to everyone who has weighed in so far on this issue; the answers you gave brought home some issues on the PS3 that, while they don't apply to my setup, I can see why for some that could mean the unit isn't for them.
Also, thanks for not turning it into a war.
But then again, I still haven't jumped on the Blu-Ray band wagon. For that matter, I haven't seen ANY DVDs that I've wanted to buy in the last six month...
Maybe that's just me, but the question was asked...
Doesn't matter. I don't plan games either but bang for buck it was the BEST player out there easily!
Not in last six months?
I can actually think of quite a few BDs that I would like to acquire: The Searchers, The Third Man, The Man Who Fell To Earth, Master & Commander, Walkabout, Raging Bull, Amadeus, Black Narcissus, The Third Man, 400 Blows, Goodfellas, Raging Bull, Taxi Driver, 2001, Casablanca, Darck City DC, El Norte, Zulu, In My Father's Den, Pride & Prejudice, Blade Runner...Criterion's BDs alone will keep me broke.
And I've been following with joy the release of several classic and art films from way back that are just now getting decent DVD releases.
I could care less about most big blockbuster type movies, but there is plenty else out there to savor. There's also far more films that I would rent on BD than I would buy.
Heck, and I only have little bitty old HD-TV.
Yes, seriously...
The last DVD I bought, and this was about ten months ago was "Classic Albums' Making of Dark Side of the Moon". I',m just not enthralled by most movies out there. A few classics maybe, but nothing today even catches my eye (I might pickup Wall-E, but that's a long shot).
My ex-wife was a movie fanatic, so when the big D happened a few years back, she not only got a good selection of the movies (I got some nice ones), she got the whole home theater system (sound and big screen).
I got, and am keeping my audio system...
... then some pasty 20-something will crawl up from his parents' basement and want to play it.
Seriously though ... I have no interest in video games, and the lack of a multichannel analog output makes it useless for many home theatre applications.
Prehistoric 4-Channel Lizard
That makes no difference to me whatsover, the fact that it plays games doesn't offend me.
But I ideally want a one box solution, region free, that will upscale my R2 and R4 DVDs and convert smoothly to NTSC from PAL, and allow me to play locked Region B BDs.
Not wild about the analog set-up either.
Doesn't look like the Oppo is going to satisfy these requirements, so I'm probably not going that route, and will just have to shell out more bucks for a modded machine.
PS/3's bluetooth remote can't be directly replaced by any multifunction remote, and even if you buy Nyko's IR remote + USB receiver, you still need to deal with the reliance on keys labelled with the "X", square, circle and triangle.
And frankly, for home use, I'd rather have a tray-loading player than a slot-loader.
David, racer, thanks for weighing in.
David,
I hear you on the audio issue, but I think, with the current/future gen surround receivers/amps all having HDMI, should this still be a stumbling block? I currently run an older Yamaha receiver w/o HDMI, so I do DolbyDigital or DTS at the moment, but the next one will of course have it.
I didn't think of the remote control issue. I use the optional Bluetooth remote Sony makes for the PS3. Ok, control convenience can be a strike against it.
Are there any players that play region-free Blu-Rays? I am curious.
racerguy,
The noise issue seems indeed to vary, according to some posters. I have pretty good ears and I am 12 ft. from the screen. I can honestly say I don't hear it, but if there are significant production variances in the units, I can understand your reluctance, unless as David says, it's down to too constricted placement. For hook-up issues, see above.
CC.
"I hear you on the audio issue, but I think, with the current/future gen surround receivers/amps all having HDMI, should this still be a stumbling block? I currently run an older Yamaha receiver w/o HDMI, so I do DolbyDigital or DTS at the moment, but the next one will of course have it."
It is for some people. I wasn't prepared to touch a player that couldn't decode the new codecs and at least output them in LPCM via HDMI, both of which my receiver can handle, because I wanted the benefit of the new codecs plus a single cable connection. The PS3 is fine for that but those were 2 things I had to have and I would have passed on it if it couldn't do those things.
Some others want analog output of the new codecs because their receivers won't accept HDMI. That's their choice. They may not be planning to upgrade receivers for some time but they also want the benefit of the new codecs. The PS3 won't do it for them and that's definitely a legitimate reason for them to consider another player.
There are a range of players out there and some do things that the others don't, like analog output, bitstream output, 7.1 outputs, better DVD processing and upscaling, region free playback, and so on. If a given player doesn't do the things an individual wants and others do, then that person has a legitimate reason for passing on the players that don't. Their reasons are their reasons and that's it.
I believe there are some players that are region free, at least as far as DVD playback goes. I'm in Australia and there's a much more limited range of players available here than in the US. The Panasonic DM55 isn't available here, for instance, but the 35 is. I haven't gone chasing region free players here but even when the same product model is released here, the version here can have different features to the US version so that complicates matters even further when it comes to discussing what particular models can and can't do in some cases.
David Aiken
My understanding is the BDA will not license a player for BD if it is region-free for DVD. Thus the new Oppo "universal" player will not be DVD region-free as have most (all??) of their previous DVDPs.
Somebody asked about "region-free" BDPs. I haven't heard of any yet. There are many non-region-specific BDs though...I haven't looked into it really, so far I've only bought BDs made in North America.
From both you and Racerguy.
I would also add that due to its size/shape and ventilation requirements, I just don't have the space for a PS3.
And, just as a FYI, there are no region free BD players in the US. NONE, except after market mods. The one that many had high hopes for being region free, is the upcoming Oppo-unfortunately it will not be, at least in the US.
Jack
Though I haven't seen a standalone...those of us that use PCs for Blu Ray playback in our HT systems have indeed region free Blu ray. We do have to go into the Blu ray player's software setup and choose the region manually [A,B or C]with a few clicks of the mouse.
Noise: naturally the noise issue "varies" from person to person. It's not just product sample-specifc, it's due to location/room acoustics/individual noise sensitivity. You asked for specific reasons other than "it's a game console" for why people wouldn't buy it. Noise is a major reason for me. The PS3 (any version) is louder than the loudest device I currently have in my A/V room, and increasing the ambient noise level in the room is NOT one of my goals. Given that fact, why would I want one just for Blu-ray playback when I can get a Blu-ray player that's not noisy?
As to hook-up issues: as I've said on this forum before - I have no use for a receiver in my A/V room. I've already got better multi-channel amplification than any receiver could provide, and I do not need or want a radio as part of my A/V room system. There are not yet any HDMI-equipped processors that I would consider to be price/function-competitive to my current non-HDMI processor, so for now I am limited to multi-channel analog if I want lossless audio. The PS3 doesn't do this, so it is poorly equipped to integrate into my current system.
In order to properly accommodate a PS3, I would have to downgrade to inferior equipment, or spend an outrageous amount of money for a buggy, first-generation "high-end" processor. What is there that the PS3 offers to compel me to do either of these things? Nothing that I can see.
If the PS3 suits your needs, I'm happy for you. Just don't make the mistake of assuming that because it works so well for you, it should work well for everyone, and don't make the mistake of assuming that someone who does not choose a PS3 is misguided or silly or stubborn or pretentious.
-I'm really not interested in video games, so that's one strike.
-I've heard lots about how the PS3 is noisy/has fans and that's a big strike 2. I am very picky about noises. My Pioneer DVD recorder has a very quiet fan, still bugs me during quiet parts of a movie.
-Grant, can you pause the movie? I think somebody's at the door/the phone is ringing/the dog is barking/let's get some popcorn, etc. Wait, no remote, serious?
-What about those who don't have HDMI hookup in our current system and don't plan on changing that any time soon.
This is some sort of crazy baseball game; 4 strikes and still at bat. :) Will I get a BD player, maybe some day. Would it be the PS3 with all those strikes, don't think so.
I'm pretty sure I've seen multi-region players, do a Google/AVSForum search.
What are you talking about not being able to pause a movie? Just pick up the controller and press X. The movie is paused.
-I'm really not interested in video games, so that's one strike.
What about BD players that play CDs? If you're not interested in CDs, does this make it a strike against those players? Of course not: you don't have to play CDs on a BD player just like you don't have to play games on a PS3.
-I've heard lots about how the PS3 is noisy/has fans and that's a big strike 2. I am very picky about noises. My Pioneer DVD recorder has a very quiet fan, still bugs me during quiet parts of a movie.
There are numerous factors that affect the PS3's fan speed. For most people it is a non-issue with the 40/80/160GB versions, which run quieter than the others (20/60GB). However, since you are sensitive to noise, this may still be a problem for you so it is a valid concern.
-Grant, can you pause the movie? I think somebody's at the door/the phone is ringing/the dog is barking/let's get some popcorn, etc. Wait, no remote, serious?
That's just silly. There is a dedicated non-game remote for the PS3. The MSRP is $25, but it can be found on the internet for $16. About every other month, someone is running a special where you get a free PS3 remote if you buy something (usually a PS3 or even a movie, as Wal-Mart had a special for a free PS3 remote if you bought the Hancock Blu-ray).
-What about those who don't have HDMI hookup in our current system and don't plan on changing that any time soon.
That makes every Blu-ray player without 5.1 or 7.1 analog outputs (and there are several) a non-option, not just the PS3.
-I'm really not interested in video games, so that's one strike.
What about BD players that play CDs? If you're not interested in CDs, does this make it a strike against those players? Of course not: you don't have to play CDs on a BD player just like you don't have to play games on a PS3.
> > No, but why pay for options that don't improve the picture (gaming) if I don't need it; I'd rather spend "$x" (no idea what a PS3 is worth, sorry) on a player that's dedicated and thus > may < offer better picture/sound.
-I've heard lots about how the PS3 is noisy/has fans and that's a big strike 2. I am very picky about noises. My Pioneer DVD recorder has a very quiet fan, still bugs me during quiet parts of a movie.
There are numerous factors that affect the PS3's fan speed. For most people it is a non-issue with the 40/80/160GB versions, which run quieter than the others (20/60GB). However, since you are sensitive to noise, this may still be a problem for you so it is a valid concern.
> > But do stand alone BD players have noisy fans? If some did I'd avoid them as much as the PS3, no different.
-Grant, can you pause the movie? I think somebody's at the door/the phone is ringing/the dog is barking/let's get some popcorn, etc. Wait, no remote, serious?
That's just silly. There is a dedicated non-game remote for the PS3. The MSRP is $25, but it can be found on the internet for $16. About every other month, someone is running a special where you get a free PS3 remote if you buy something (usually a PS3 or even a movie, as Wal-Mart had a special for a free PS3 remote if you bought the Hancock Blu-ray).
> > This I did not know. X that comment out.
-What about those who don't have HDMI hookup in our current system and don't plan on changing that any time soon.
That makes every Blu-ray player without 5.1 or 7.1 analog outputs (and there are several) a non-option, not just the PS3.
> > So if I was looking for a BD player I'd have to avoid one that didn't offer this (such as the PS3 does not).
If my old X1 PJ was easier to hook up with a BD player, and a BD player offered a decent quality increase over standard DVD with the limited hook-ups (which it probably does) I'd consider one. I looked into it; scroll down to my X1 BD post from last week, I AM curious, but my system dictates that a PS3 would not be an option.
I am WAY more interested in the audio portion of my system, spending a bunch of money on a new PJ just is not in my plans. Heck, half the reason I got a PJ was to remove the TV from between the speakers.
No, but why pay for options that don't improve the picture (gaming) if I don't need it; I'd rather spend "$x" (no idea what a PS3 is worth, sorry) on a player that's dedicated and thus > may < offer better picture/sound.
That's not the right perspective with the PS3. Don't think of it as "paying" for an option: whether or not you use the gaming feature, think of getting it for free.
But do stand alone BD players have noisy fans? If some did I'd avoid them as much as the PS3, no different.
They all have fans. The SPL from the fan will vary from player to player and depend on just as many factors as the PS3. However, while I have not compared numerous players, I doubt any would be louder than the PS3's fan in "high" mode. That said, the 40/80/160GB PS3s are quieter than the 20/60GB versions: "loud" depends on the individual and the environment.
If my old X1 PJ was easier to hook up with a BD player, and a BD player offered a decent quality increase over standard DVD with the limited hook-ups (which it probably does) I'd consider one.
Blu-ray players will output 480i, 480p, 720p and 1080i from the analog component outputs. The picture will be better than DVD, but "how much better" depends on the display. I have a Panasonic BD35 for the bedroom system (42" plasma, 852x480) and I can assure you that a semi-blind person could see the difference, even scaled down to 480p, between DVD and Blu-ray on this display. There's more to picture quality than resolution and seeing a comparison of DVD to Blu-ray on a 480p display will drive this point over the center field wall at 435 ft.
I am WAY more interested in the audio portion of my system, spending a bunch of money on a new PJ just is not in my plans.
If you need multi-channel analog, I would suggest the current Panasonic BD55 or the upcoming Panasonic BD80 or, for more $, oppo BDP-83 (both around Q2 09).
Part of the reason I'm now curious about better formats is that I'm increasing my drop-down screen size from 84" (4:3) to 110" (16:9). I was more than happy with the picture quality at 84", but do fear I may not be so at 110". My screen should be arriving this coming week, so I'll see soon. I am not a videophile by any means, and am fairly easily satisfied with image quality.
ALL blue players have fans? Dang. :)
As for the PS3, my philosophy is that if you pay $200 for a PS3 that's built to play games, or $200 for a dedicated blue-ray player, there's a likely chance the dedicated player will perform better for the audio and video portion.
I'm not sure what you're referring to re multi-channel analog; I use my 2 front channels and a dedicated CDP only for music listening. Do I need multi-channel analog for blue-ray...?
The PS3, when you use it via HDMI, is the best player for Blu-ray at this time. It does absolutely zero additional processing of the video for Blu-ray and converts all of the audio codecs to PCM without any of the problems that some players have. It even decodes and converts the lossy DTS codecs (DTS ES 5.1 Matrix, DTS ES 6.1 Discrete and DTS 24/96 5.1) in their intended output configuration to PCM: no other Blu-ray player does that via HDMI.
Its only video limitation for Blu-ray is that is does not deinterlace 1080i video to 1080p, but it has been hinted that this will come in a firmware update. In other words, 1080i discs are output as 1080i, so if your High Definition display can't deinterlace a 1080i signal properly, you will not get all of the motion detail with action sequences. And speaking of firmware updates, the PS3 firmware support is above and beyond that of any Blu-ray player.
As to price, it's $399, but as David says below, the cost incurred to SCE is well beyond that. The gaming industry sells consoles at a loss and makes their profit on games. In other words, you're getting a deal vs what a player that could do what the PS3 does would cost.
You don't need multi-channel for Blu-ray. All players can output down-mixed to stereo if that's what you need or prefer. The PS3 can only output stereo if you want an analog output -- it doesn't have multi-channel analog outputs, which is what some people with older non-HDMI receivers need for a multi-channel system. Video output from the PS3, via analog, gets you composite, S-video or component (there's a break-out type cable for each format).
Grant, I am not saying the PS3 is what you need. I'm just trying to clear up some misunderstandings and incorrect info re: the PS3. I would, however, suggest that you check out the PS3 and see what it can do beyond just Blu-ray and DVD playback (and I'm not talking about the gaming aspect, either). You may find that there's a lot more about the PS3 that makes it a better choice than other players out there. Then again, your opinion of it may not change at all.
"As for the PS3, my philosophy is that if you pay $200 for a PS3 that's built to play games, or $200 for a dedicated blue-ray player, there's a likely chance the dedicated player will perform better for the audio and video portion"
Not necessarily true with the PS3 which is actually selling for less than the manufacturing cost because Sony are trying to capture gamers and hoping to make their profits on the games. Competing players at the same price aren't being sold at a loss but at a profit. There's more than a fair chance that the PS3 will perform equally well as a dedicated player at the same price, perhaps even better on some things. It's certainly still the fastest loading BD player which may not sound like much but some BD players are very slow loaders.
You don't need multi-channel analog for BD, you don't even need anything more than 2 channels, but the PS3 has some very individual limitations on it's output. If you want the full benefit of the new lossless formats you have no choice. You have to use PCM output via HDMI. The full lossless format signal isn't available any other way. You can get it in 2 channel, 5.1, 7.1 as you wish but you have to use HDMI and PCM output if you want to get that. Also, if you want analog output, you can only get 2 channel, not 5.1 or 7.1 so if you want surround sound you have to use digital output of some kind.
The PS3 does BD very well, does a quite good job with upscaling DVD but isn't top of the pack, and does audio well within the limitations of it's output. It has specific ventilation needs and it can be quite noisy if those needs aren't met. As far as BD features go it's basically got the full feature set and Sony have been keeping it up to date with firmware updates. Many of the standalone players don't have the full set of BD features but I seriously question whether many people really want the full set. I'm not really interested in BD Live, for instance.
If the PS3 does what you want a player to do and you can meet its ventilation needs, you should give it consideration and I think you'll find it stacks up well against the competition, being a little better in some areas and worse in others. It's currently good value. There are good reasons for choosing one, and good reasons for choosing a different player.
Coming down the track are a number of new players and player prices are dropping. While it's competitive and good value now, it probably won't be as competitive when those new players hit but it will still probably provide good value.
If you're considering a BD player, take your time. Decide what you want and look carefully at the specs because sometimes it's hard to work out whether or not a particular player provides a certain feature or not. Keep an eye on announcements of new players because the situation is fluid.
But as far as BD itself goes, it's certainly gives you a better experience with both picture and sound than DVD, and I can see and appreciate the differences on a 32" screen so you should have no problems at all seeing them on an 84" screen, much less a 110" one. That's the one thing you don't need to have any doubts about.
David Aiken
Here's a link to some discussion of Blu-ray on a 480p display. Please excuse a few of the douchebags in the thread, as not everyone at AVS Forum is able to claim birth from non-blood related parents:
I'm 61 and I bought a PS3.
I don't find it noisy but it does need good ventilation. I think a lot of the noise reports come from people who don't provide that, plus the noise levels tend to have varied a bit from model to model based on what I've heard.
Audio output options are limited so you need to consider whether it can provide the audio output that you want. If you want the new high def audio outputs you're basically limited to LPCM over HDMI. You can't get bitstream output for the new formats. Optical and analog outputs are also not capable of outputting the new lossless formats.
It does not provide region free playback of either BD or DVD.
BD picture quality doesn't seem to vary much between players. The PS3 is a quite good quality DVD player but there are other players which are said to give better DVD picture quality.
The remote control is via Bluetooth so normal universal remotes will not work with it unless you plug a bluetooth to IR converter into it. Several commercial products offer this ability but they do add to your cost.
If it does what you want it's a good candidate to consider. It's still the fastest loading BD player and it is profile 2.0. Sony have kept it up to date with firmware updates. There's every reason to believe they will continue to do that.
David Aiken
That makes it useless for me.
Other than that, what's not to like? :-)
It's not noisy *unless* you're gaming or don't give it ventilation. The latest 80/160GB versions are based on the quieter old 40GB version which runs much cooler than the units people mostly complain about (different chipset and technology).
Connectivity is fine IF you have HDMI. If you don't you will some day. This is not a flaw, any more than saying a 5.1/7.1 device is "flawed" because you only have 2 speakers... But yes, you do need HDMI to get all the good stuff, so I wouldn't even bother with the PS3 unless that's in your near future.
The lack of built-in IR connectivity was a stupid Sony decision, I'll give you that. Especially when you consider a third-party solution is available for as low as $10...
I assume you mean the the lossless/uncompressed audio "good stuff". If so, I disagree. The right player will give me all of that on the 5/7.1 analog outputs which is my preferred approach given my aversion to spending 4-5 figures on a new preamp/processor. PS3 need not apply.
A new pre/pro for video processing ? perhaps not if I can get "equivalent" video fireworks from the right combination of source player(s) and display.
There is no other option with it for lossless BD audio.[when quoted in context]
Edits: 01/07/09
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