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66.141.185.23
In Reply to: RE: Oppo posted by mnilan on August 30, 2009 at 07:03:44
(nt)
Follow Ups:
The one box BD/DVD solution for those of us who import DVDs from other regions, plus the Oppos do excellent PAL> NTSC conversion.
So have you done the mod? How easy is it...REALLY?
EEK to all that stuff below...
Did you go over the pics/instructions from the people who sell it? I'm sure you could do it...
Does your display not take PAL input? I think most of the current models do, well at least many. I've been having my "other" Oppo region-free player just put out PAL since I got the newer display, one less conversion, seems to look pretty good I'd say (though many of the movies I have in PAL are lower budget ones not released here, so tough to say they look fabulous).
Do you know anything about DVDs that were converted from PAL to NTSC, on a DVD copy I mean? I'm trying to help somebody who has these. His Oppo 983 (region-free) won't play them properly. I'm suspecting a cadence issue. I can't test in the BDP-83 because mine is not region-free, but it tests very well with odd cadences.
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We must be the change we wish to see in the world. -Gandhi
Modifying a player is NOT illegal, genius. If modifying gear for better performance was illegal it would put a lot of folks who tweak audio components with unauthorized after market mods OOB.
It may void your warranty, but it isn't a violation of any law; the fact that you're portraying it as such is either disingenuous or demonstrates just how little you actually know about property rights. The BD cartel does NOT own your player (well, they may own yours, because they apparently own YOU, but that's another matter).
You can modify a player however you want. BTW, Oppo didn't just pull all of their region-free DVD players off the market when they offered their first region/zone locked player at the BD cartel's insistence; so, according to your line of reasoning Oppo is still selling players which are illegal.
AuPh
Mod'ing to improve performance is fine. Mod'ing to make a region-specific player non-region specific in violation of its distribution agreements is absolutely illegal. By the way, the ounce of dope in your glove box is illegal too.
But don't worry auph, I won't drop a dime on you.
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We must be the change we wish to see in the world. -Gandhi
Bailiff: "All rise!""Hear ye, hear ye, ...the honorable Judge Foryerself will hear testimony today regarding the case of Big Brother verses the public interest."
Opening statements:
Judge Foryerself: "First, we'll hear the charges presented by prosecutor Hamilton Burger..."
> > > "Mod'ing to improve performance is fine. Mod'ing to make a region-specific player non-region specific in violation of its distribution agreements is absolutely illegal." < < <
Judge Foryerself: "Now we'll hear from the defense..."
Perry Mason: "Your honor, I would argue that modification of the Oppo player does improve performance by expanding viewer options."
(audible gasp from the courtroom)
Judge Foryerself (gavel): "Continue counselor..."
"Furthermore, if this players legal status is being contested, then prior case law involving the allowed sale of Momitsu players should take precedence. In this groundbreaking case, the fully region/zone free Momitsu was offered for sale on ebay without objection by the BD cartel, excuse me, consortium. These players continue to be imported and sold in the U.S. as region/zone free in ebay listings without complaint."
Hamilton: "...but your honor, this is ouright piracy!"
Perry: "If I may continue. I would also contend that Mr. Burger has not laid the proper groundwork to prosecute his case."
"Someone should inform learned counsel that while buying pirated products IS inarguably illegal, buying a modified or modifiable player to play legally licensed DVDs and Blu-rays purchased from other regions of the world does NOT violate any domestic or international law because all taxes and fees are paid by the consumer."
Hamilton: "I object, your honor!"
Judge Foryerself: "On what grounds? Objection overruled; do you have anything more to add, Mr. Mason?"
Perry: "Yes, your honor."
"If opposing counsel believes that any laws are being violated by film collectors having the ability to play their favorite foreign films, then it behooves the learned prosecutor to locate the exact statute and link the source. If he can't enter any prima facie evidence during these hearings, then I would contend that he has no case."
Judge Foryerself: "That's an interesting argument. Continue, Mr. Mason."
Perry: "Thank you, your honor."
"I suspect that the court will find numerous region & zone free players along with after market mods being sold legally through various legitimate retailers. I contend that these modifications perhaps violate specific licensing agreements, but that that violation would be between the player or modification manufacturer and the BD cartel, excuse me, consortium."
"It also presumes civil liability based on an assumption of lost revenue which is entirely dependent upon proving that consumers are purchasing licensed products from other regions in preference to buying exactly the same items produced in their own region."
Hamilton: "I object on the grounds that Mr. Mason has failed to prove how modified players are legal if they aren't properly licensed."
Judge Foryerself: "I'll withhold my ruling until I hear Mr. Mason's response."
Perry: "Thank you, your honor."
"To the contrary, do your homework, counselor. Legality in the criminal sense is not even at issue here, because no crime has been committed."
"Thus far the prosecutor's arguments have been irrelevant, immaterial and incompetent. If the consumer owns a modified player that has been obtained through a legal purchase and isn't using said player to break any existing laws then no criminal laws are being violated."
Judge Foryerself: "That sounds like a reasonable argument; it looks like Mr. Mason has got you there prosecutor."
"In lieu of appeal to a higher court, this case is dismissed!"
Cheers,
AuPh
Edits: 09/05/09 09/05/09 09/05/09
Modifying a blu-ray player to be region free is COMPLETELY legal and if you can cite a specific statute, since you still want to argue this, please do so.
There isn't one.
Region free coding is a COMMERCIAL LICENSING issue - it's contractual between the licensor of the Blu-Ray patents and the manufacturers who are licensees. If a manufacturer violates that agrteement, it is a contractual breach which would bring civil penalities if litigated.
There is NO contract between the patent licensor and the consumer. The consumer is perfectly free to do what they want with their players in terms of modifying them to be region free.
Funny that a person who claims to be a Blu-Ray "Reviewer" knows so little and continues to argue a simple, incorrect position.
No one thought the record labels would come after them--and you're probably right that no studio would ever go after folks who mod their players to get around regional distribution. But the studios do have legal rights to distribute titles in only certain geographic areas. You're gravely mistaken if you think the studios don't have legal precedent to go after manufacturers or individuals who tamper with or disable regional specs on their player. Distribution privileges for studios may seem like just a hassle to you, but studios pay big bucks for distribution rights. There is so much legal force behind it that even countries like China that heretofore ignored intellectual property rights are now falling in line. When you mod your player to be region free you are legally challenging the studio's distribution rights. if you think you can win that challenge, you must have a really good team of lawyers behind you. Either that or you're off your rocker, which is the more likely explanation.
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We must be the change we wish to see in the world. -Gandhi
Edits: 09/05/09
or more likely you're just the kind of person who can't stand to be wrong.Distribution rights, even if they were relevant to this (they're not, you are now stretching far afield from your original assertion), are an issue between the producing STUDIO and the disc distributor. Distribution rights have nothing whatsoever to do with the hardware manufacturer, whose only license obligation is to region lock the player according to the region of sale.
Once again, distribution rights have NOTHING whatsoever to do with the consumer, and their is no contractual relationship between the distributor and consumer, nor are their any laws restricting the consumer in that regard.
You are getting even worse in trying to equate the copying and distribution of music files with modifying a blu-ray player. Copying and distributing copyrighted material to circumvent royalties is, indeed, a crime. There are indeed intellectual property laws, and those are indeed enforced. They are laws that apply to consumers.
But modifying a blu-ray player and viewing discs from other regions is no violation at all of intellectual property laws, nor any other statute.
Bottom line - flat out, full stop - you are 100% wrong, there is NOTHING illegal in ANY country about modifying a Blu-Ray player to be region free.
I'm happy to write the Blu-Ray Association today giving them my full confession that I have modified my OPPO BDP-83 to be region free, with my full name and address, and invite prosecution.
No worries of course, there has never been one, as there are NO LAWS against it. They might even ask me where to get one.
You have a long history here and elsewhere of being wrong, being argumentative and generally being a fool. Why do you keep it up?
Edits: 09/06/09 09/06/09
> > Distribution rights, even if they were relevant to this (they're not, you are now stretching far afield from your original assertion), are an issue between the producing STUDIO and the disc distributor. < <
The studios are the distributors. The regional coding is their approach to compliance. Noncompliance undermines distribution. Do the math.
> > Distribution rights have nothing whatsoever to do with the hardware manufacturer, whose only license obligation is to region lock the player according to the region of sale. < <
Nonsense. The only reason the manufacturers are obligated to region lock the player is because of distribution rights.
> > Once again, distribution rights have NOTHING whatsoever to do with the consumer, < <
Repeating that lie doesn't make it true.
> > You are getting even worse in trying to equate the copying and distribution of music files with modifying a blu-ray player. < <
I didn't equate the two. I brought up the former to point out that people ripping music illegally in the privacy of their own homes had a similar sense of entitlement and justification that some of you seem to have in "getting around" region locking. Eventually the industry had to go after music pirates because they were costing the labels too much money. As I said before, I don't think the studios will ever go after those of you who modify your players. You're more interested in titles that don't sell well in any region.
> > But modifying a blu-ray player and viewing discs from other regions is no violation at all of intellectual property laws, nor any other statute. < <
Of course it is. For example, Cinderella Man is distributed in Asia by Mirimax/Buena Vista. But in the US it's distributed by Universal. If everyone in Asia decides to import the US version or everyone in the US decides to import the Asian version, the studio that owns distribution rights is basically being robbed blind. Regional coding is the method to ensure that doesn't happen.
> > Bottom line - flat out, full stop - you are 100% wrong, there is NOTHING illegal in ANY country about modifying a Blu-Ray player to be region free. < <
The medium is home video and you seem to think that "home" i.e., the consumer, is not a dog in this fight. But ultimately it's the only dog that matters to studios. Electronics manufacturers and sales of disc machines are just a delivery mechanism to reach that dog. If such modification became widespread and cut into studio profits in regions where a studio had exclusive rights for a film, you would indeed see the studios take mod'ers to court and demonstrate just how illegal this practice is.
> > I'm happy to write the Blu-Ray Association today giving them my full confession that I have modified my OPPO BDP-83 to be region free, with my full name and address, and invite prosecution. < <
Go for it. I'd be interested in an official position on this by the association, which is of course made up of manufacturers who frown upon modification of their products for any reason. You've probably voided your warranty in addition to violating the region locking properties of the player. But since you've obviously gone to some lengths to get your OPPO mod'ed, you're experiencing a bit of cognitive dissonance and are unable to evaluate and discuss this issue in a logical manner.
-------------
We must be the change we wish to see in the world. -Gandhi
I certainly get the sense that this is going nowhere with you, as you are a person who just can't admit he is wrong and hasn't the common sense to stop making a fool of himself."The studios are the distributors. The regional coding is their approach to compliance. Noncompliance undermines distribution. Do the math."
Nope, wrong. The studios are NOT in most cases the distributor. Look at the rear of a disc package to learn that. Regional coding of discs, by the way, is NOT mandatory - it is a choice a distributor may or may not make.
"Nonsense. The only reason the manufacturers are obligated to region lock the player is because of distribution rights."
Wrong, manufacturers have NO relationship with distributors. The obligation to region lock is imposed as a condition of licence from the patent holders. In effect, the BDA administers those patents, and to manufacture Blu-Ray players, one needs to license from the BDA, and a condition of that license is that the player be region blocked.
"I didn't equate the two. I brought up the former to point out that people ripping music illegally in the privacy of their own homes had a similar sense of entitlement and justification that some of you seem to have in "getting around" region locking. Eventually the industry had to go after music pirates because they were costing the labels too much money. As I said before, I don't think the studios will ever go after those of you who modify your players."
You did lamely attempt to equate the two, but in any event, you still can't understand. Illegally copying and distributing music rips off record companies and artists. Making a blu-ray player region free DOES NOT. FULL royalties are paid to all as the discs themselves are perfectly legitimate.
" You're more interested in titles that don't sell well in any region"
No, I'm not. I'm only interested in titles that are not available in Region 1. Primarily, I get a lot of British movies that never come over here, as well as French movies as I speak French. You have a typically American centric, limited world view. Americans tend not to understand English movies, both language and style.
"Of course it is. For example, Cinderella Man is distributed in Asia by Mirimax/Buena Vista. But in the US it's distributed by Universal. If everyone in Asia decides to import the US version or everyone in the US decides to import the Asian version, the studio that owns distribution rights is basically being robbed blind. Regional coding is the method to ensure that doesn't happen."
Once again, dead wrong. But didn't you say above that the studios ARE the distributors? Now you say that is not the case?
In any event, it is certainly true - as the distributors are not the studios in all cases, that there may in some cases be a risk of one region distributor benefitting at the expense of another. But in all cases, once again, royalties and other fees are fully paid. In a practical sense, the risk is extremely small, as in general the only cases where the consumer benefits from importing a title from another region is where that title is not available in his home region. The vast majority of titles on international release are by now being released simultaneously, or close to it, in every region. And the cost of importing usually negates any price advantage. So really, the majority of cases where a title is being imported between regions is when a title is simply not being released in the home region. No financial loss at all in those cases. Actually - there is financial gain, as people are buying more discs that they otherwise could not have.
"If such modification became widespread and cut into studio profits in regions where a studio had exclusive rights for a film, you would indeed see the studios take mod'ers to court and demonstrate just how illegal this practice is."
Nope, dead wrong, since there is no law prohibiting modification to be region free. I asked you to provide a reference to such statute, and I'm sure an internet savvy guy like you could easily do so, except that there isn't one. What you WOULD see is, obviously, release of those films in the region they are being imported into. Or equalization of prices between regions, if that were the cause of importation. Or simultaneous release, if that's the cause.
You see, that is how free enterprise works in a free market system. If there's money being left on the table, the studios and distributors would act to get it. Common sense.
"But since you've obviously gone to some lengths to get your OPPO mod'ed, you're experiencing a bit of cognitive dissonance and are unable to evaluate and discuss this issue in a logical manner."
Sounds like the impotent response a person endowed like a child would make. When all else fails, try for a petty shot that's personal. No worries there, I'm perfectly fine and having nothing serious to compensate for.
I went to NO great lengths to get my OPPO modified, it took me two clicks on my paypal account to get the hardware and about 10 minutes to do the modification on my kitchen table, of which 6 minutes was spent getting the cover open.
Enjoyed a great British suspense thriller last night that will never be released in North America. Don't worry, you wouldn't have understood it.
Nuff said on this one, I'm not into beating my head against a wall with people like you. Your rep speraks for itself.
Edits: 09/06/09 09/06/09 09/06/09 09/06/09 09/06/09
> > You have a typically American centric, limited world view. Americans tend not to understand English movies, both language and style. < <First of all, your reading skills of much of my previous post were in sad shape. You missed my point about distributors being the movie studios. You know damn well the distributor doesn't have to be the same studio that produced the movie. You missed most of my other points by overreaching in your pathological need to see me wrong. Since you have obviously mod'ed your player, you have emotional reasons that make you fail to see your act as illegal. Your blind spot is formidable, but after your dig at Americans above, I've decided I can't take you seriously. I thought you were just insulting me because you felt I was "disrespecting" something you did to your Oppo. But now it's clear that you're just a crackpot.
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We must be the change we wish to see in the world. -Gandhi
Edits: 09/06/09
........ YOU'RE A LOT CLOSER TO BEING A CRACKED POT ONCE A FIRE IS LIT UNDER YOU! ;0)
No, I'm insulting you because you are stupid, and insist on proving it to your discredit.
You're an imbecile.
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We must be the change we wish to see in the world. -Gandhi
Like I said, the last retort of internets cowards when they are backed into a corner, formed from their own lies and mistakes, is to hurl a rather impotent personal insult.
As I said earlier, the action of one who is built like a child.
I have to wonder at what motivates you. Obviously, no one likes you or respects you here (or elsewhere, from what I can see) yet you continue to return, usually to be humiliated and further shown to be rather not terribly bright. I doubt this is some sick masochism. Is it that you are so lonely and unfulfilled in your day job that you seek this type of attention, despite it being almost always negative? Are you constantly striving for validation and redemption, hoping that finally one day you might get something right?
You seem to have very little knowledge and extraordinarily seldom have anything factual or helpful to contribute, and your presence always seems to stir up these types of exchanges, where others try to carefully set you straight with facts and you get increasingly aggressive and in a downward spiral.
It's all very sad, and a have to wonder about what motivates an individual like you to continue on for so many years as an object of ridicule.
... and his points appear entirely valid, where yours come across as angry trolls cheerleading the BDA and looking for trouble.
Case closed, Hamilton.
AuPh
...you are clearly biased in this area.
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We must be the change we wish to see in the world. -Gandhi
If you've ever purchased any imported records, SACDs, DVD-As or CDs then you are depriving U.S. labels of income. You should dispose of all imported music and replace it ONLY with U.S. manufactured alternatives (regardless of any real or imagined differences in sound quality) because you're funding European and Asian labels at the expense of U.S. labels.Note: For the sake of discussion I'll give you the added advantage of limiting this to pressings that are or have been available from both U.S. and foreign labels rather than requesting that you divest yourself of all foreign titles (including those never offered in the U.S.), even though in the video realm my DVD & Blu-ray purchases are generally titles that aren't being made available over here at all.
If you aren't willing to do as I'm suggesting, then you're nothing but a hypocrite. Food for thought.
AuPh
Edits: 09/06/09 09/06/09
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We must be the change we wish to see in the world. -Gandhi
Do you have any imported discs? According to YOUR arguments, they are violating distribution agreements.
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We must be the change we wish to see in the world. -Gandhi
.....the major studios are having a hard time at the moment and we consumers should respect regional coding, just like, for instance, Sony respects it's consumers.
Best Regards,
Chris redmond.
Edits: 08/31/09
:O)
I've seen various ebay sellers offering a hardware kit describing this upgrade/modification.
-Steve
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