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Doom and gloom, gloom and doom

69.108.126.82
Posted on May 28, 2007 at 07:54:06
Duilawyer
Audiophile

Posts: 29475
Joined: November 5, 2001
 So I got my HD20 which I love, I go into the Mom and Pop DVD rental and the girl behind the coutner says "We don't carry HD, not until the format war is over"
DUI: "But Walmart, Costco, and the adult industry all went HD!!!"

"Yeah but Playstation (or Wii) has Blue Ray built in, so we think Blue Ray will win out..."

Oh..... :-(

 

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$30.00 HD movies are going to slow down adoption...., posted on June 1, 2007 at 12:08:11
oscar
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Posts: 19522
Location: Fort Worth, TX
Joined: October 25, 2000
 And only early adoptera are routinely buying HD movies at this time.

HD DVD only has a slight edge hardware-pricewise but I expect that to change when/(if?) economies of scale start to kick in for Blu-Ray; I'm sure Wal-Mart is scouting (and getting quotes) for "cheap" Blu-Ray players as well as HD HD DVD players. Also, most of the major studios support Blu-Ray with Sony, Disney, and Fox supporting Blu-Ray exclusively. Universal is the only major studio which is HD-DVD exclusive. If Universal goes "format-neutral", HD-DVD will be dead within a couple of years.

I'm support both formats because I got a combo player. But I'm rooting for Blu-ray to win because of it's superior storage capacity and video/audio bitrate/bandwidth advantages. Maybe not noticeable on 40" or smaller screens but I've seen low bitrate VC1 motion artifacts on a 126" screen I didn't particularly care for. You are also more likely to be able to fit in lossless audio tracks (uncompressed PCM, TrueHD, and DTS HD MA) with Blu-ray discs.

 

$19.99-24.99 is the going rate. nt...., posted on June 2, 2007 at 15:09:58
Duilawyer
Audiophile

Posts: 29475
Joined: November 5, 2001
 .

 

The way to really shop is resist the urge to buy new release movies in the store for at least 6 months., posted on June 2, 2007 at 19:50:17
oscar
Audiophile

Posts: 19522
Location: Fort Worth, TX
Joined: October 25, 2000
 By then, the prices will have dropped $5-10-15 per movie (whether DVD or HD-DVD/Blu-Ray).

 

RE: $30.00 HD movies are going to slow down adoption...., posted on June 1, 2007 at 18:18:53
unclestu52
Dealer

Posts: 6982
Location: Hawaii
Joined: March 5, 2005
 I notice the less popular movie prices are dropping to the $20 dollar level on DVD planet. I believe mass production will drive prices down even further, but it seems that Sony is determined to keep the prices up and availability limited (at least for transport mechanisms). Sam Sung announced a universal player well before any of the formats were issued but apparently Sony shot down their idea (not to mention that they offered SS a billion dollar contract to build all of Sony's LCD sets!).
WE'll haave to wait and see if Sony's marketing effectively kills the Blu ray as it did the SACD.Stu

 

I've gotten several Blu-Rays/HD DVDs below $15 on Fry;s sales.., posted on June 1, 2007 at 22:09:15
oscar
Audiophile

Posts: 19522
Location: Fort Worth, TX
Joined: October 25, 2000
 and CompUSA closeouts.

My understanding is the Blu-Ray ROM drives will start to be available in quantity this summer which should drive down the price considerably. I won't be surprised if they break the $300 barrier by the end of the year; mostly as a direct result of HD-DVD player prices dropping. I'm sure the BDA consortium would like to keep BD player prices artificially high, but Toshiba et al ain't cooperating.

 

Hope...., posted on June 2, 2007 at 11:18:07
unclestu52
Dealer

Posts: 6982
Location: Hawaii
Joined: March 5, 2005
 Last year, before the first Blu ray units rolled out, everyone announced a 500 to 700 dollar model to be forthcoming. I have yet to see those machines from any one, although some of the first generation machines are dropping noticeably in price. I see some $1K machines now selling for $700, which isn't bad, as the next generation has always provided better playback quality at cheaper prices.
Let's keep our fingers crossed.

Stu

 

RE: Hope...., posted on June 2, 2007 at 11:44:04
Jack G
Audiophile

Posts: 9798
Joined: September 24, 1999
 Sony has just announced that the list price of their new upcoming BD player will be $100 cheaper than originally announcd, at $500, not $600. They arefeeling the pressure from the competition. That's still a long way from $300.
Jack

 

$249 plus 5 free movies. nt, posted on June 3, 2007 at 07:18:09
Duilawyer
Audiophile

Posts: 29475
Joined: November 5, 2001
 .

 

Maybe you need to think about moving…, posted on June 1, 2007 at 13:51:52
David Aiken
Audiophile

Posts: 5858
Location: Brisbane
Joined: September 25, 1999
 Here in Australia, HD movies seem to be selling routinely at around the $35-40 mark, but that's Australian dollars. $30 US is about $37 Australian so that's close to parity with the US price. I think the recommended retail prices here are around the $45 Australian mark but I've really only seen HD discs in the larger, specialist DVD outlets that routinely discount new discs so I don't know where to go to buy one at recommended retail price and I've never seen anyone do it.

So what, you ask. Well, new release ordinary DVDs of box office films have recommended retail prices of $35-40 Australian dollars here, so there's little difference between buying a HD movie at one of the outlets that routinely discounts prices or buying a new release standard def DVD at a store charging recommended retail price.

On the other hand, HD players here seem to be selling at prices which are the equivalent of about twice the US price. We have to pay a premium for the machines for some reason but little premium on HD discs and a greater premium on standard def DVD discs.

It's a crazy world.


David Aiken

 

I pay $18 for my HD DVDs, posted on June 1, 2007 at 12:26:37
Jack G
Audiophile

Posts: 9798
Joined: September 24, 1999
 At Amazon-not combos or multidiscs obviously. B&M stores are selling them for almost MSRP, which isn't helping sales any. In fact, most B&M stores seem to have chosen not to get involved at all. If Wallyworld gets involved in this( there are rumors), they'll sell cheap players as well as cheap discs.
Jack

 

RE: I pay $18 for my HD DVDs, posted on June 2, 2007 at 07:18:39
blackpixels
Audiophile

Posts: 70
Location: Florida
Joined: January 13, 2006
 Seriously Jack, how many titles are selling for $18? Let's face it, if you can buy any of the new releases or desirable titles you're getting a great deal if you can get them for $20-$23 + tax, or (S&H) out the door. Unless you just want all of them to have the HD qualities regardless of if you really care for the flick or not. Even on Ebay you might get lucky and win a bid, but for the most part after you factor in shipping you're at just about the same price. Certainly pricing will continue to become more competative going forward. I bought both Pirates at Circuit for $48 and change plus recieved a $15 gift card back as they matched the promotional price from Target @ $23.98 plus 10% of the difference to boot. Your right about the going price in most B&M's are 24.99, 29.99 and 34.99 respectively excluding multi's.

Costco's selling 50 first dates and Black Hawk down for $14 and change...not exactly at the top of MY list...

 

I heard 50 FD WAS AT THE TOP of your list., posted on June 2, 2007 at 15:11:37
Duilawyer
Audiophile

Posts: 29475
Joined: November 5, 2001
 :-)

 

RE: I pay $18 for my HD DVDs, posted on June 2, 2007 at 09:37:29
Jack G
Audiophile

Posts: 9798
Joined: September 24, 1999
 Have you looked at the prices on Amazon? Combos and multidiscs cost more obviously, but your basic HD DVDs list on amazon for $20. Their normal price is 33% off list, plus since I bought 3 discs at once one time back in 2006, I get an extra 10% off all HD DVDs and BDs (this expires at the end of 2007). That brings it down to $18. Bd seems to be priced a couple bucks higher. I have Amazon prime, so I get second day shipping more or less free now. My point wasn't to brag that I get 43% off list, but that if Amazon can sell the discs at that price, other stores probably could get close, if they choose to. You know when Wally World gets into the game, they'll negotiate even better prices.
Jack

Edit: I do tend to buy more catalog titles than new releases. I don't really have much interest in most of the newer releases.

 

RE: I pay $18 for my HD DVDs, posted on June 2, 2007 at 14:00:30
blackpixels
Audiophile

Posts: 70
Location: Florida
Joined: January 13, 2006
 I'm not trying to be combative, but I was just looking today and I can't find anything less that $19.95 on Amazon unless you're buying used. Okay, I understand the membership discounts, and the super saver discounts, but the fact is they're not normally going to be "18.00". I agree about Wally World, I was just on Bluray.com and there's are many threads about how they wouldn't shop Walmart, but I bet when they have the best prices they'll sure be shopping there. I've bought a couple new releases from them because they were the cheapest at the time. I've don't have that much pride....lol - Hey, If I can get some BR's for $18 I'm there, but you still have to figure in shipping MOST of the time...Let me know you find other HOT pricing. Best,

g

 

Try deepdiscount, posted on June 2, 2007 at 15:12:48
Jack G
Audiophile

Posts: 9798
Joined: September 24, 1999
 www.deepdiscount.com is having a 20% off sale. Use code DVDTALK or SUPERSALE. I haven't checked recently, but I've used them in the past, the sales are OK.
Enjoy,
Jack

 

Will do thanks...(nt), posted on June 3, 2007 at 14:59:42
blackpixels
Audiophile

Posts: 70
Location: Florida
Joined: January 13, 2006
 (nt)

 

There's a buy 2, get 1 free BD sale at Amazon., posted on June 7, 2007 at 05:04:08
Jack G
Audiophile

Posts: 9798
Joined: September 24, 1999
 I'm not sure how long it will last. This means we should look for an announcement in the next few weeks about how well Blu-ray discs are selling.
Jack

 

B&M pricing has finally forced me to buy from Amazon...., posted on June 1, 2007 at 12:41:50
oscar
Audiophile

Posts: 19522
Location: Fort Worth, TX
Joined: October 25, 2000
 Fry's is almost competitive but the days of "casual browsing/buying" at Best Buy are gone.... at least WRT to Blu-Ray/HD-DVD.

 

Netflix to the rescue..., posted on May 30, 2007 at 15:11:44
JoeLip
 Hi,

Their web site shows alt. formats when available, so you might want to go browse. I really like their service (std DVD only), and they have a hub in Gaithersburg so turn-around time is really fast for the DC area (I'm in Manassas). Worth a look.

Cheers, Joe

 

I just ordered a Toshiba HD-XA2., posted on May 29, 2007 at 19:02:45
Dalton
 $569.99 through Amazon.

I got the HD-A2 from Best Buy and love the video quality. Even standard DVDs, upsampled to 1080i and displayed on a 106" screen via an Optoma HD70, look very acceptable. HD DVDs look great at my projector's native 720p. My problem with it was the sound. Since I don't have an hdmi-capable receiver (does anyone yet?), I could only use an optical link which downgrades the sound significantly even on standard DD and DTS soundtracks compared to my Denon DVD-5910. With the optical link, the A2 sounds no better than "good" FM radio through my system. And of course, you need the hdmi link to access the high resolution tracks available on HD-DVD.

I looked at the A20, but it too does not have a way to access the high definition soundtracks without an hdmi-capable processor, plus no digital coax output. So I got the HD-XA2, which has 5.1 analog outputs which will carry the high resolution tracks (decoded by the player) to my Denon AVR5800 external inputs. Plus, the XA2 has 1080p resolution for the future when I upgrade the projector.

 

Cool, posted on May 30, 2007 at 05:15:32
Jack G
Audiophile

Posts: 9798
Joined: September 24, 1999
 The XA2 has a much better chip in it than the A2. It will have a better picture for both HD DVDs and DVDs, than the A2. Analog outputs are nice-one of the better ways of getting HD audio.
Enjoy,
Jack

 

Blu-ray is the way to go NT, posted on May 28, 2007 at 22:22:12
Jazz Inmate
Audiophile

Posts: 64448
Location: Bay Area, California
Joined: April 5, 2000
-------------

"I have found that if you love life, life will love you back." -Arthur Rubinstein (1887-1982)

 

HD-A2 is #3 Top Selling DVD Player @ Amazon, posted on May 30, 2007 at 18:59:36
Duilawyer
Audiophile

Posts: 29475
Joined: November 5, 2001
 HD-A2 is #3 Top Selling DVD Player @ Amazon

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In the top 100 electronic devices that Amazon, the first 88 are things like Digital Cameras and IPod's.

#89 - Coby DVD player - $30

#91 - Phillips Multiformat DVD player - $50

#96 - Toshiba HD-A2 - $385

 

I paid 388 for HD A20, with tax, tip and license. nt, posted on May 30, 2007 at 19:00:28
Duilawyer
Audiophile

Posts: 29475
Joined: November 5, 2001
 .

 

You get what you pay for NT, posted on May 31, 2007 at 23:29:54
Jazz Inmate
Audiophile

Posts: 64448
Location: Bay Area, California
Joined: April 5, 2000
-------------

"I have found that if you love life, life will love you back." -Arthur Rubinstein (1887-1982)

 

But what are you paying for--really?, posted on June 1, 2007 at 10:29:30
4season
 Maybe you simply feel the need to spend more money before you can feel good about a product, and I guess that's not uncommon.

I like electronic gadgets as much as the next guy, and maybe I'll get a Sony PS/3 in the future. At the moment, it's full of unrealized potential, and how much extra should I pay for that, and how long should I be willing to wait for good things to happen? ;-) Part of me feels like taking a chance on PS/3 now, the other part remembers buying Playstation Portable and eventually trading it in for a Nindendo DS, which has actually been lots more fun.

 

I got what people paid $599 for a month ago. nt, posted on June 1, 2007 at 06:27:00
Duilawyer
Audiophile

Posts: 29475
Joined: November 5, 2001
 .

 

Touche' (nt), posted on June 1, 2007 at 06:59:37
Jack G
Audiophile

Posts: 9798
Joined: September 24, 1999
 .

 

I've had it., posted on May 29, 2007 at 19:06:03
Dalton
 I'm done messing around with Sony's proprietary formats which no doubt they will eventually "support" about as well as the Democrats support the war in Iraq.

 

proprietary formats, posted on May 29, 2007 at 20:41:58
Joe Murphy Jr
Audiophile

Posts: 4424
Joined: February 3, 2001
 Blu-ray is not a Sony proprietary format. Though it's supported by >180 companies, here are the companies responsible for the Blu-ray format development:

 

RE: proprietary formats, posted on May 30, 2007 at 05:12:06
Jack G
Audiophile

Posts: 9798
Joined: September 24, 1999
 >>>Blu-ray is not a Sony proprietary format.<<<
For all practical purposes it is. Yes, there are other companies in the BDA, but it really is a Sony baby.
It is Sony that is selling a game consiole that is undercutting all other companies's stand alone players.
It is Sony who is subsidizing the sale of PS3s (see above)
It is Sony who is waiving replication fees(for major studios) of the discs
It is Sony who is controling the production, at least at the moment, of BD-50s.
It is Sony who is putting out the majority of BD exclusive titles.
It is Sony who is keeping BD alive.
Yes, there are other companies in the BDA, but they really don't count all that much.
Jack

 

Sony has about as much to do with blu-ray's success as Microsoft has to do with HD-DVD's success, posted on May 31, 2007 at 23:29:01
Jazz Inmate
Audiophile

Posts: 64448
Location: Bay Area, California
Joined: April 5, 2000
 Pick your poison.

I'll take Sony, thank you very much. So will Disney/Buena Vista, Lionsgate, MGM. Warner and Paramount are neutral. The only one firmly in Microsoft's camp is Universal, but look for that to change over the next year.

Really, though, the enemy is standard definition. Look what happened with that SACD vs DVD-A war. We early adopters were so caught up in the minutiae, we ended up with lossy downloads. If that happens with video it will be a real shame.
-------------

"I have found that if you love life, life will love you back." -Arthur Rubinstein (1887-1982)

 

Agreed--HD Vs. SD, posted on June 1, 2007 at 05:40:11
Jack G
Audiophile

Posts: 9798
Joined: September 24, 1999
 That is and always was the issue. I don't subscribe to the Highlander Syndrome-"There can be only one!". I've been saying all along that the 2 formats will coexist as niche markets. The masses just don't care. I'm not a fan of Micro$oft, though they did develope VC-1. Nor, do I care for Sony, but I do have one of their TVs.
Right now, sales of discs aren't big anough for any studio to change positions-there just isn't enough money involved to make it worth while. The biggest selling title on HD right now is The Departed, where with both formats *together*, just broke the 100,000 mark. Casino Royale on BD sold about 60-70,000. That's peanuts, a whole lot of nothing. Surprisingly, Planet Earth is doing relatively well in sales. There really are customers outside of gamers, imagine that.
Sales of players hasn't really been great either, until very recently, with the sale on HD DVD players. One spokesman said sales went up 5-10 fold(I'm skeptical), but we'll have to see what effect that will have on the software. The PS3 has sold, albeit not as well as expected, but with an attatch rate of about 0.5 movies/unit, it isn't breaking any records either. The BDA's plans of catering to gamers/kiddies for a quick 'win' doesn't seem to be working.
Its still way too early to say much. Time will tell how things go.
Jack
PS. I don't see downloading movies as a real alternative-it takes way too long to download that much info, and most people still don't have broadband.

 

RE: Agreed--HD Vs. SD, posted on June 1, 2007 at 09:26:57
Dalton
 Of course, this isn't the first time Sony has tried to jump start a format by targeting the wrong customers.

Hoping that PS3 game consoles will help Bluray is roughly equivalent to the hopes in 2001-2003 that sales of Sony DVD players with SA-CD capability would help SA-CD. It didn't happen before, it won't happen now. Gamers buy PS3s to play games, not to watch movies just as the Sony DVD/SA-CD players were bought to watch DVD movies, not to listen to high resolution audio. A small minority of PS3 owners will be tempted to try Bluray - once. They'll buy one or two movies and lose interest because their gaming setups in most cases won't be optimized to show them the advantage of the high resolution theater experience. They won't see the benefit of paying $25 for a Bluray movie they can get for $10 on DVD.

I feel that both formats will coexist for a few years. Projecting at 106", I can certainly appreciate the benefit of high definition video. And most of the high definition programming I get on DirecTV is so compressed that it's unwatchable except for nature and travel programing where the images are fairly static. So I figured there's no sense waiting now that the HD players have become affordable and the first-generation bugs have been (to a reasonable extent) resolved to my satisfaction.

 

nah, the games ARE blu-ray, posted on June 4, 2007 at 18:37:30
Jazz Inmate
Audiophile

Posts: 64448
Location: Bay Area, California
Joined: April 5, 2000
 Most gamer these days are hi-res freaks. They will appreciate the blu-ray movies as much as the games, which are blu-ray too, by the way.

With Sony's latest firmware for the PS3, this is more of a home multimedia center than a game console. Even I will start using it as such and I was mainly interested in the games and movies.
-------------

"I have found that if you love life, life will love you back." -Arthur Rubinstein (1887-1982)

 

RE: nah, the games ARE blu-ray, posted on June 4, 2007 at 19:42:12
4season
 "Most gamer these days are hi-res freaks"

As a Nintendo shareholder and fan of the top-selling Wii and DS, I'd dispute that ;-) Imaginative gameplay and story are higher on my list than polygons.

What can I say? I'm tempted to get a PS/3, but as a gaming machine, it's mostly untapped potential right now, and it may be so for quite awhile to come: Figure that Halo 3 for Xbox 360 will have taken almost 3 years! Having hardware capable of rendering every blade of grass is one thing, but actually doing it is another! The more detailed things get, the longer they'll take to produce and the costlier the whole production becomes. And games publishers will be inclined to play it safe, rather than try something daring.

 

How's the XA2 treatin' ya?, posted on June 1, 2007 at 09:55:55
Jack G
Audiophile

Posts: 9798
Joined: September 24, 1999
 What have you watched on it so far?
Jack

 

RE: How's the XA2 treatin' ya?, posted on June 1, 2007 at 11:21:20
Dalton
 So far, so good Jack. I haven't had a lot of time with it yet. I have watched "Poseidon", which I'm using as a reference/calibration disc. Yeah, I know it's not a very good movie. But I'm a sucker for disaster at sea movies and the original version, "The Poseidon Adventure", is a long time favorite. "Poseidon" has great visuals (if admittedly terrible characterization) including both spetacular cgi effects and elaborately detailed real sets. You can see where the $200 million production cost went (apparently not enough of it went toward a good script). Is the picture quality better on the XA2 than the A2? I'm not sure. Both have excellent detail resolution. I think I see smoother color rendering in the faces of the actors. But truthfully, both are more than satisfactory as far as picture quality is concerned as far as I can tell with my Optoma HD70 which is really the weak link in the system. The Optoma HD70 does not have the best color depth or sharpness, but is a good compromise while I wait for 1080p projectors to come down in price.

What impresses me most is the sound quality with the HD-XA2. Set up only took a few minutes using a Radio Shack dB meter and the Toshiba's test tones and on-screen prompts. Using the analog outputs I am able to access the Dolby TrueHD soundtrack on "Poseidon" and it sounds much smoother and detailed than the low resolution Dolby Digital track through the A2's optical output. Bass resolution is especially improved over the A2 and dialog is clearer and more natural sounding. For instance, before the wave hits there is a announcement over the noise in the dining room that I could never quite make out in Dolby Digital. Now I could clearly hear it: "Brace for immediate and heavy roll". I have a Vienna Acoustics Oratorio center speaker and this is the first time it really sounds great with DVD. I can hardly wait for the shipment of HD-DVDs I ordered from Amazon, which includes a couple of concert videos.

I have also watched a little bit of "Field of Dreams" on HD-DVD. There's some disturbing pixelation or noise present in the twilight sky near the beginning of the movie as Kostner is hearing voices in his cornfield. But that could be the projector. So far I am very satisfied with the HD-XA2.


 

Did You Try A CD?, posted on June 1, 2007 at 12:25:38
Robertc88


 
Been wondering about that. I have a Denon AVR3803.

So I don't I have a receiver with HDMI. I only have a Tosh 50" RPTV with component. Not sure how good the picture quality would be also.

I think I have it straight regarding the audio I can get using the 5.1 analog outs for movies. Perhaps though it's too early for me for this technology considering what I have.

 

RE: How's the XA2 treatin' ya?, posted on June 1, 2007 at 11:55:16
Jack G
Audiophile

Posts: 9798
Joined: September 24, 1999
 Glad you like it. Yes, the XA2 has a better picture than the A2, and my A1-it has a better chip inside. I watched the first 2 Matrix movies-stellar picture and sound. I just got my import of Mulhalland Dr.(no region coding on HD DVDs), but haven't watched it yet. More and more discs are coming out with TrueHD sound-those analog outs really are nice aren't they? While not HD, Pan's Labyrinth upscaled looks very very good, if not a little disturbing...
Have fun,
Jack

 

Check your local Blockbusters...nt, posted on May 28, 2007 at 17:09:00
johnvb
 .

 

RE: Doom and gloom, gloom and doom, posted on May 28, 2007 at 09:05:01
4season
 Hollywood Video's "Library" outlets are much larger than the regular stores, and they have a small section devoted to both BD and HD formats, and this is how I've been doing most of my HD viewing :-)

BTW, currently Costco offers more BD than HD titles online, and Walmart apparently had never gone further than explore the possibility of $199 HD players, but we already know that's coming with or without them. Meanwhile, judging from Amazon's top sellers list, Sony's PS/3 hasn't given the BD format an edge in same-title sales over HD: If anything, same-title HD sales are more robust.

2-5 years from now, who knows? We could all die waiting for the future to sort itself out! Might as well enjoy what we've got today, because nothing is every totally future-proof.

 

I LIKE IT!!! Why wait? nt, posted on May 28, 2007 at 13:57:32
Duilawyer
Audiophile

Posts: 29475
Joined: November 5, 2001
 .

 

RE: I LIKE IT!!! Why wait? nt, posted on May 29, 2007 at 05:47:46
ruxtonvet
Audiophile

Posts: 527
Location: maryland
Joined: September 25, 2004
 Try Netflix.

 

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