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Only 13% of game consoles are used for viewing movies

66.167.146.180
Posted on July 1, 2007 at 13:16:36
Jack G
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Joined: September 24, 1999
 Even though about 80% of game consoles are capable of some sort of movie play back (discs or downloads), only 13% are used as such. of that 13%, 74% is used to watch DVDs.
Not encouraging for any next gen format depending on game consoles.

 

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RE: Only 13% of game consoles are used for viewing movies, posted on July 1, 2007 at 16:03:56
4season
 Interesting link, thanks, wish it didn't cost $2500 to read the entire report though!

Below is a link to a Gamasutra.com article citing NPD game console sales figures as of April 2007, which showed lifetime PS/3 sales in North America at 1.3 million, (and 13% of that is 169,000). That's the latest NPD figures I've been able to find.

Also worth a look is Gamasutra's analysis of the aforementioned NPD report:
http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=14341

 

Using statistics to make bad assumptions, posted on July 1, 2007 at 19:59:13
racerguy
 It seems a lot of BD fans are claiming, or at least wishfully thinking, that sales of PS/3s puts BD on top. The problem with that is it's all assumption, and we all know where that leads us.

Sadly, these claims/wishful thinking remind me a lot of the claims that DVD-Audio cheerleaders frequently made - that the proliferation of DVD players in the mass market meant that DVD-Audio would automatically "win" the format war against SACD, and that purchase of a DVD-Audio-capable DVD player meant that mass market consumers would naturally purchase DVD-Audio discs instead of CDs. Neither of those claims turned out to be correct.

Edit: this is not to say that BD fans are the only ones guilty of trying to make statistics fit their views; it's just that there seem to be more rabid BD fanboys circling around here than there are HD DVD fanboys :)

 

The PS3 will change that NT, posted on July 2, 2007 at 15:20:23
Jazz Inmate
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Location: Bay Area, California
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-------------

"I have found that if you love life, life will love you back." -Arthur Rubinstein (1887-1982)

 

Well, this thread kicked off with statistics about the entire installed base of game consoles, posted on July 2, 2007 at 15:34:35
Jazz Inmate
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Posts: 63589
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 and tried to apply those statistics to the new PS3, even though older game consoles don't even play DVDs and therefore can't be used for movies. One of the big draws of the PS3 was its blu-ray capability. Papa gets to watch Unforgiven in its HDTV glory and Junior gets to run around the UK shooting chimera in Resistance Fall of Man. That's not wishful thinking. It happens to be the only way families are justifying the expense of the unit.

I agree that applying statistics in ignorant ways is annoying. But the fact is that blu-ray is outselling HD-DVD and has more support at the big studios and manufacturers. There are specifications and applications of blu-ray that make it clearly superior to HD-DVD. Just the fact that it can accomodate more data ought to make anyone concerned with quality instantly favor blu-ray, and so thank goodness you see more "BD fanboys" circling around here. This is, after all, an asylum where people are interested in spending their money on items of superior quality.
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"I have found that if you love life, life will love you back." -Arthur Rubinstein (1887-1982)

 

RE: Well, this thread kicked off with statistics about the entire installed base of game consoles, posted on July 2, 2007 at 15:53:14
racerguy
 >>even though older game consoles don't even play DVDs and therefore can't be used for movies<<

Well, that's not true. The PS2 plays DVDs. The original xBox plays DVDs (pretty well, actually). This seems to trash the rest of your argument about game consoles.

>>But the fact is that blu-ray is outselling HD-DVD and has more support at the big studios and manufacturers.<<

That may be so, but it's premature to declare a winner, as you are doing.

>>There are specifications and applications of blu-ray that make it clearly superior to HD-DVD.<<

Yes, but the same can be said about HD DVD. Both have advantages and disadvantages. I suggest you not get too caught up in the technical hype. If technology was the deciding factor, Beta would have won the Beta/VHS format war. We all know how that turned out.

>>Just the fact that it can accomodate more data ought to make anyone concerned with quality instantly favor blu-ray<<

Yes, except that's only one factor. Focusing on one factor and ignoring all the rest isn't a good thing to do. Let me try this one on you, and see what you think:

Just the fact that it does not limit choices due to Region coding ought to make anyone concerned with having a broad choice of entertainment options instantly favor HD DVD.

>>thank goodness you see more "BD fanboys" circling around here<<

Actually, I find it incredibly annoying. All the cheerleading and bias from the fanboys gets in the way of useful discussion, and it does nothing but spark flamewars, just like over in the KEKL forum ;-)

 

Have you tried it?, posted on July 2, 2007 at 16:39:22
richardl
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Posts: 3557
Joined: September 5, 2002
 I have and the picture is so-so and the audio is hideous. Any $40 player is better than the PS2 that I used, seriously. Game Consoles seem to be dreadful for watching movies in my experience. Most of the gamers( As a boomer I am too old to get it.) that I know completely agree. They have a separate DVD player for movies.

 

I used PS/2 as my DVD player for years, posted on July 2, 2007 at 17:02:02
4season
 Call me ignorant, but until the Toshiba HD-A20 arrived, I was using an earlier Playstation 2 as my DVD player via component video, mostly on a 27" Samsung "HD ready" CRT, and with the TV doing the deinterlacing, and I was reasonably happy, except for the fan noise and the touchiness with dirty/scratched disks.

With the 32" Sharp LCD, the PS/2 no longer looked so hot: Too obviously pixelized. PS/3 is said to do it's scaling in software, so I'd expect that firmware updates could considerably improve it.

 

RE: Well, this thread kicked off with statistics about the entire installed base of game consoles, posted on July 2, 2007 at 17:32:46
Jazz Inmate
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Posts: 63589
Location: Bay Area, California
Joined: April 5, 2000
 >> That may be so, but it's premature to declare a winner, as you are doing. <<

I didn't declare a winner. I merely declared that there are, in fact, rational people who would adopt the PS3 over any HD-DVD machine, and use the PS3 for movies. And I said there are technical advantages of blu-ray over HD-DVD.

>>Yes, but the same can be said about HD DVD. Both have advantages and disadvantages. <<

All is not equal. Take a close look at the advantages and disadvantages, especially as they relate to implementation.

>> I suggest you not get too caught up in the technical hype. If technology was the deciding factor, Beta would have won the Beta/VHS format war. We all know how that turned out. <<

Yes, but that wouldn't have stopped me from adopting the superior format and extolling its virtues, which I think is the obligation of any serious consumer. Calling people "fanboy" is dismissive of valid points.

>> Yes, except that's only one factor. Focusing on one factor and ignoring all the rest isn't a good thing to do. Let me try this one on you, and see what you think: Just the fact that it does not limit choices due to Region coding ought to make anyone concerned with having a broad choice of entertainment options instantly favor HD DVD. <<

1. Most blu-ray discs (including all from Warner and Paramount and some others, I think) do not use region encoding. Its implementation comes at the discretion of the studio.
2. The concern about local releases/region encoding will not outweigh the concern about audio and video quality among knowledgeable consumers.

>> Actually, I find it incredibly annoying. All the cheerleading and bias from the fanboys gets in the way of useful discussion, and it does nothing but spark flamewars, just like over in the KEKL forum ;-) <<

Yeah, but the notion that we can't choose one preferred format and discuss why it is better than the other and why it is apparently ahead in sales without being branded "fanboys" is also incredibly annoying.
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"I have found that if you love life, life will love you back." -Arthur Rubinstein (1887-1982)

 

RE: Well, this thread kicked off with statistics about the entire installed base of game consoles, posted on July 2, 2007 at 18:18:24
racerguy
 >>Yes, but that wouldn't have stopped me from adopting the superior format and extolling its virtues<<

:-)

>>, which I think is the obligation of any serious consumer. Calling people "fanboy" is dismissive of valid points.<<

Would you prefer to be called a "cheerleader" instead, since you are "adopting the superior format and extolling its virtues?" :-)

>>1. Most blu-ray discs (including all from Warner and Paramount and some others, I think) do not use region encoding. Its implementation comes at the discretion of the studio.<<

Since I haven't seen most blu-ray discs, I'd have to accept your statement at face value; however, this article says you are wrong.

FYI, implementation of region coding in legacy DVD-V was at the discretion of the studio too. They implemented it in a big way, and unwittingly created an entire sub-industry dedicated to trying to get around it. This time they've decided to make it "more robust" in an effort to keep consumers' choices limited.

>>2. The concern about local releases/region encoding will not outweigh the concern about audio and video quality among knowledgeable consumers.<<

This is a silly, and rather self-centered statement. Technological prowess and impressive spec sheets may be the most important factor for YOU, but other "knowledgeable consumers" may feel that content availability, portability, utility, and especially content availability (yes, I'm repeating on purpose) outweigh minor differences in audio and video quality. One only needs to look at the (lack of) success of other niche micro-market products like Laserdisc, DVD-Audio, and SACD to see proof of this. Region coding and other DRM bells-and-whistles tend to scare off knowledgeable consumers, not the other way around.

>>Yeah, but the notion that we can't choose one preferred format and discuss why it is better than the other and why it is apparently ahead in sales without being branded "fanboys" is also incredibly annoying.<<

I promise I'll just call you a blu-ray cheerleader instead :D

 

"Technological prowess and impressive spec sheets" means greater potential for best AQ and PQ..., posted on July 2, 2007 at 18:51:04
oscar
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Posts: 19522
Location: Fort Worth, TX
Joined: October 25, 2000
 available on HD video formats. The existing compromises with 25G and 30G discs suggest to me movies which take advantage of Blu-ray 50G disc bandwidth and storage capacity provide the best possible AQ and PQ which I feel is necessary to help separate HD video from DVD. The HD-DVD mantra of "good enough" just isn't good enough IMHO. But then again, I'm shooting for the very best video/audio from the currently available video formats which perhaps unfortunately separates me from your average consumer.

Anyone posting on this forum should already have an interest in the best possible audio quality for their home audio systems. They should also be interested in the best possible audio and video quality for their Home Theater systems. Blu-ray does the best job of and has the highest potential of delivering the best possible AQ and PQ capable of today's Hi-def video consumer formats. That is, until the next generation Ultra HD formats with Terabyte portable/hard drive/holographic/?? media becomes available.

 

Yeah, posted on July 2, 2007 at 18:56:08
racerguy
 >>Blu-ray does the best job of and has the highest potential of delivering the best possible AQ and PQ capable of today's Hi-def video consumer formats.<<

The same thing was said about Laserdisc. Quite a success, wasn't it?

 

i'm not exactly brimming with optimism that Blu-Ray will achieve mass-market success., posted on July 2, 2007 at 19:30:23
oscar
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Location: Fort Worth, TX
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 I just hope HD-DVD doesn't interfere with Blu-Ray's admittedly slim chances of success.

 

I suspect it will interfere about as much as DVD-A and SACD interfered with each other (nt), posted on July 2, 2007 at 19:31:55
racerguy
 .

 

Indeed, PSP sold 7.4M as of April 07 yet UMD movie sales are dead in N.A., posted on July 2, 2007 at 19:49:54
4season
 Sales of movies on UMD media for Sony's Playstation Portable suggest that you can't always count on a "trojan horse" effect!

From 2005, articles hailing the success of UMD movies:
http://www.mp3newswire.net/stories/5002/umd.html
http://www.usatoday.com/tech/products/gear/2005-05-22-handheld-movies_x.htm

From 2007, UMD movies not selling well, studios cut back:
http://www.geek.com/umd-movie-sales-falling-hollywood-cuts-back/
http://www.engadget.com/2006/02/16/breaking-news-sonys-umds-arent-selling-well/

Wikipedia article on UMD:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Media_Disc

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: Success is not assured for either Blu-Ray, or for HD DVD, so if you like your movies in 1080p, show your support for them now! And if they fail, don't count on a superior new format to emerge from their ashes: It didn't happen with SACD and DVD-A, so why expect it here?

 

MP3s and Ipods killed SACD/DVD-A; what's the equivalent for video ? nt, posted on July 2, 2007 at 19:50:22
oscar
Audiophile

Posts: 19522
Location: Fort Worth, TX
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 .

 

HD On-Demand from cable/sat, most likely (nt), posted on July 2, 2007 at 19:51:54
racerguy
 .

 

True... but I like my movies available for playback anytime I want without accessing an outside server...., posted on July 2, 2007 at 20:27:18
oscar
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Posts: 19522
Location: Fort Worth, TX
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 Having the disc in-hand works much better for me; but then again, I don't rent movies anymore. HD downloads via the internet is a nonplayer at least in the near-term; I don't expect the infrastructure will support real-time downloads anytime soon.

 

I'd say Podcasts and downloadable movies, posted on July 2, 2007 at 21:24:56
Jazz Inmate
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Posts: 63589
Location: Bay Area, California
Joined: April 5, 2000
 I've said repeatedly this war isn't between blu-ray and HD-DVD but between HDTV and SDTV. At the same time plasmas were getting bigger and 1080P was coming to market, other manufacturers were making TVs smaller and putting broadcasts on iPods and computer windows.
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"I have found that if you love life, life will love you back." -Arthur Rubinstein (1887-1982)

 

RE: Well, this thread kicked off with statistics about the entire installed base of game consoles, posted on July 2, 2007 at 21:41:03
Jazz Inmate
Audiophile

Posts: 63589
Location: Bay Area, California
Joined: April 5, 2000
 No, I don't think adopting or being happy with blu-ray makes me a fanboy or a cheerleader. If I thought HD-DVD was the way to go, I'd have adopted that. I'm not following HD-DVD adopters around, calling them HD-DVD fanboys or cheerleaders. So there's no good reason it's happening to me.

Technological limitations of content storage are far more important than the issue of regional encoding. First of all, we live in a world of laws. Some of those laws cover intellectual property like the software on your discs. While it may seem like a nuisance to you that you can get The Producers on blu-ray in Japan, but only on HD-DVD in the US, that is the studios' legal rights to distribute the film. Studios, like record labels, ought to be encouraged to find ways to protect their intellectual property as long as it doesn't compromise performance or quality. But beyond that, quality should be what HDTV is all about and quality equals data rates and data rates equal storage capacity. Blu-ray is simply is superior.

There is a way to make HDTV attractive to both consumers and content providers and the simple fact is that blu-ray was designed with both sides of these issues taken into account. That's not hype. That's cold, sober fact, borne out by sales figures and studio support. Even DUI sold his toshiba.
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"I have found that if you love life, life will love you back." -Arthur Rubinstein (1887-1982)

 

That's the theory, practice is another matter, posted on July 3, 2007 at 05:27:57
Jack G
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Posts: 9741
Joined: September 24, 1999
 So far, there hasn't been any proof that the higher bandwidth or greater storage has given a superior picture. While Disney tried to do this with the Pirates movies, recent reviews have have said that Paramount's Black Snake Moan is just as good PQ and both BD and HD have the same AVC encoding.

From the Highdefdigest review:

"Boasting superb visuals equal to 'Pirates of the Caribbean: Dead Man's Chest,' 'Black Snake Moan' features reference quality video that quite simply has to be seen to be believed. The Blu-ray and HD DVD versions are identical to my eye and fans of both formats should be ecstatic with this release."

Pity I'm not interested in the movie.
Jack

EDIT: OK, curiosity got the better of me, so I ordered it.:-)

 

Lack of interest killed SACD/DVD-A, posted on July 3, 2007 at 05:31:06
Jack G
Audiophile

Posts: 9741
Joined: September 24, 1999
 Even without MP3s, those formats wouldn't have caught on. Nobody was interested in better audio. Apathy killed them-we'll have to see about the video equivelent.
Jack

 

I agree (nt), posted on July 3, 2007 at 07:11:49
Jack G
Audiophile

Posts: 9741
Joined: September 24, 1999
 .

 

RE: Well, this thread kicked off with statistics about the entire installed base of game consoles, posted on July 3, 2007 at 07:12:10
racerguy
 >>No, I don't think adopting or being happy with blu-ray makes me a fanboy or a cheerleader. <<

Oh, I agree 100%. Just being an adopter doesn't push someone into fanboyism or cheerleader status. It's the "extolling its virtues" thing you mentioned in your previous post that makes someone a cheerleader :-)

>>While it may seem like a nuisance to you that you can get The Producers on blu-ray in Japan, but only on HD-DVD in the US, that is the studios' legal rights to distribute the film. Studios, like record labels, ought to be encouraged to find ways to protect their intellectual property as long as it doesn't compromise performance or quality.<<

If all you care about are the latest Hollywood blockbusters, fad films, and endless reissues of Hollywood "classics," I suppose your simplistic view of the situation would fit.

The facts are, however, that we live in a global economy, with the beginnings of global culture. Region Coding smacks of a provincial marketing model, not from the standpoint of controlling lawful distribution as you posit, but from the standpoint of limiting access to cultural material. Should a Polish-speaking person living in the US be required to fly to Poland just to watch a Polish-language movie? Yes, he can order a fully-legitimate, licensed and studio-blessed copy from overseas, because we live in a global economy, but due to provincial Region Coding, he may not be able to watch it. Instead, he would have to hope that some media distribution company has an interest in releasing the Polish film outside of its primary market. The market for Polish films is not very big outside of Poland, so the likelihood of this happening is nil.

Again, I understand that people who are only interested in Hollywood's Greatest Hits may not care about this, but let me try to put it in terms that you may be able to identify with:

What if Sony had implemented Region Coding in SACD? It was actually discussed, and there were people pushing for this. Region Coding in SACD would mean that none of the JSACDs and European imports you currently own would be playable on your SCD-1. I suspect that if this were the situation, SACD would have been a non-starter for you. Can you not see how this could make blu-ray a non-starter for some people, despite its technological potential?

>>But beyond that, quality should be what HDTV is all about and quality equals data rates and data rates equal storage capacity. Blu-ray is simply is superior.<<

Superior on paper, yes. So far, the bulk of the superiority claims are coming from blu-ray fanboys and cheerleaders. Opinions that appear more objective seem unanimous that little to no difference can be seen between HD DVD and blu-ray at this point. I mentioned to you before that it is too early to declare blu-ray the winner. You denied doing this, but here you are doing it again. I still say it's too early to make such a call.

>>Even DUI sold his toshiba.<<

I can't BELIEVE you're using DUI as an example! LOL!



 

HD DVRs make it possible..., posted on July 3, 2007 at 07:30:40
racerguy
 ...to playback cable/sat-sourced HD movies anytime, without accessing an outside server. Amongst my non-videophile friends and neighbors (and my wife too), this is the current popular approach. No one goes to Blockbuster anymore.

 

I disagree, posted on July 3, 2007 at 07:32:29
racerguy
 iPods and downloads are fine for YouTube stuff, but I don't think there's much of a market for this amongst movie-watchers.

 

SACD still rules the music scene in my household...., posted on July 3, 2007 at 07:57:12
oscar
Audiophile

Posts: 19522
Location: Fort Worth, TX
Joined: October 25, 2000
 But that's probably only because I haven't reached a certain minimum threshold of vinyl collection to warrant a TT/phonostage investment.

 

"Black Snake Moan" uses the same AVC-1 encode for both Blu-Ray and HD-DVD so I expect them to have the same PQ, posted on July 3, 2007 at 08:15:08
oscar
Audiophile

Posts: 19522
Location: Fort Worth, TX
Joined: October 25, 2000
 However, the HD-DVD has an extra DDplus soundtrack, presumably because the Blu-ray is a single layer 25G which presumably didn't have the space. In this case, the HD-DVD's better storage allowed for a better soundtrack. Now if they had used a 50G Blu-ray disc, it would be an different matter entirely.

A better example might be "Nature's Journey". a music video which tries to maximize the available storage/bit rates for both Blu-Ray and HD-DVD. Both versions use VC-1 and DTS encoding; the Blu-Ray uses the higher bitrate encodes (lossless for audio). I expect the differences to be subtle, but perhaps noticeable in the better HT setups.

 

Not really. You missed my point, posted on July 3, 2007 at 08:56:16
Jack G
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Posts: 9741
Joined: September 24, 1999
 Since the Pirates movies were supposed to prove BD's extra space and bits gave a better picture than HD can *ever* get, BSM, pretty much shows that's not true.
I have little faith in RBfilms' neutrality. He's already saying that his next project will be BD only. He has openly bashed HD DVD because it limited the bitrate of MPEG-2 that he used for Chronos (thats why VC-1 and AVC are better), claiming that MPEG-2 was superior to all other codecs. Add to this the fact that he claimed he got no help from M$ with the compressing, and I'm skeptical that it will be VC-1 at its best. I'll probably pass on this disc, I was rather disappointed with Chronos.
Jack
PS. He'll be using HD15 and BD25s for this. I expect his BD to be better, since that is his preference-it'll be a shot at the HD folks that gave him grief for using MPEG-2 on Chronos.

 

Hey, its a boon for the classical music lover, posted on July 3, 2007 at 08:59:04
Jack G
Audiophile

Posts: 9741
Joined: September 24, 1999
 That musical niche has wholeheartedly embraced SACD, and many of its small labels are still making SACDs, AFAIK. Classicstoday.com still wites reviews of them. :-)
Jack

 

I'll reserve judgement on BSM and I'm not likely to waste my money to find out., posted on July 3, 2007 at 14:39:53
oscar
Audiophile

Posts: 19522
Location: Fort Worth, TX
Joined: October 25, 2000
 POTC was a bad enough waste of money; Yes the PQ was VERY GOOD but not perfect; probably better than King Kong IMHO. YMMV.

I agree MPEG2 and single layer HD-DVD are probably a bad combo, but I certainly agree with RBFILMs' concerns on the bandwidth/storage capacity limitations of HD-DVD. And if it takes a lot of TLC to make sure a low bit rate VC-1 encode doesn't ruin the PQ, then that's another argument against the use of low bitrate VC-1 (and another partial dig at HD-DVD). They appear to have legitimate concerns about the use of HD-DVD IMHO.

Are single layer discs (Blu-ray or HD-DVD) that much cheaper than dual layer discs ? I'd expect single layer discs might be appropriate for 1 hour music videos (at least with Blu-ray).

 

RE: Well, this thread kicked off with statistics about the entire installed base of game consoles, posted on July 3, 2007 at 15:32:01
Jazz Inmate
Audiophile

Posts: 63589
Location: Bay Area, California
Joined: April 5, 2000
 >> If all you care about are the latest Hollywood blockbusters, fad films, and endless reissues of Hollywood "classics," I suppose your simplistic view of the situation would fit. <<

That isn't all I'm interested in but you need to face the fact that the major studios and their blockbusters are going to drive the direction of HDTV formats.

>> The facts are, however, that we live in a global economy, with the beginnings of global culture. <<

That's fine, but piracy is a legit problem, costing the studios and recording industry million$. We may yet find ourselves in a utopia where everyone pays an equal price for content and shares in it across the globe. But until that magic, majestic moment happens, studios should be encouraged to use any tools at their disposal to protect their intellectual property in the regions where they own it.

>> What if Sony had implemented Region Coding in SACD? It was actually discussed, and there were people pushing for this. Region Coding in SACD would mean that none of the JSACDs and European imports you currently own would be playable on your SCD-1. <<

I may have bought a player capable of playing JSACDs or I may not have adopted, but let's stop engaging in what-ifs and talk about what is. Blu-rays, like SACDs, are not subject to regional encoding in Japan. You can order The Producers blu-ray from Japan and enjoy it on your PS3.

>> I suspect that if this were the situation, SACD would have been a non-starter for you. Can you not see how this could make blu-ray a non-starter for some people, despite its technological potential? <<

I could, except that the type of regional encoding you are against has not been implemented and if the studios ever feel they need to implement it because HDTV has truly become embraced by the mass market, you can bet your arse there will be HD-DVD II that provides the means for regional encoding to the exact same extent as blu-ray. In other words, this is a complete non-issue in terms of the observations between blu-ray and hd-dvd.

>> Superior on paper, yes. So far, the bulk of the superiority claims are coming from blu-ray fanboys and cheerleaders. <<

See, this is where I'm not understanding you. Are you saying that 24-bit 48 kHz lossless PCM sounds as good as DolbyTruHD? Because I have stood in Dolby Labs in SF and listened to the difference, and I can tell you there is a difference. Are you saying that data storage capacity and data rates don't matter? That it's just a lie propagated by blu-ray adopters?

>> I mentioned to you before that it is too early to declare blu-ray the winner. You denied doing this, but here you are doing it again. I still say it's too early to make such a call. <<

I said it was too early to declare a winner and say blu-ray has killed HD-DVD, but it is not too early to say that blu-ray is the superior format, both for consumers and for content providers/studios. As you yourself have pointed out, superior formats have not always won in the past.

>>I can't BELIEVE you're using DUI as an example! LOL! <<

I can't believe he figured out the advantages of blu-ray over hd-dvd before you did!
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"I have found that if you love life, life will love you back." -Arthur Rubinstein (1887-1982)

 

Hope you're right. Time will tell NT, posted on July 3, 2007 at 15:44:32
Jazz Inmate
Audiophile

Posts: 63589
Location: Bay Area, California
Joined: April 5, 2000
-------------

"I have found that if you love life, life will love you back." -Arthur Rubinstein (1887-1982)

 

Heck.... there's already more Classical titles then I have time to play...., posted on July 3, 2007 at 17:41:49
oscar
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Posts: 19522
Location: Fort Worth, TX
Joined: October 25, 2000
 Still I'd bite on "pure DSD" titles of first rate Symphonies (e.g. NY Philharmonic).

 

RE: Well, this thread kicked off with statistics about the entire installed base of game consoles, posted on July 3, 2007 at 18:11:19
racerguy
 >>That isn't all I'm interested in but you need to face the fact that the major studios and their blockbusters are going to drive the direction of HDTV formats.<<

I wonder where you got the idea that I ever disputed this. It certainly wasn't in anything I've written.

>>studios should be encouraged to use any tools at their disposal to protect their intellectual property in the regions where they own it.<<

I totally disagree with your stance on this issue. 'Nuff said.

>>I could, except that the type of regional encoding you are against has not been implemented<<

You're wrong. It has indeed been implemented, exactly in the fashion I deplore. Here's a list someone put together showing some of the discs on the market, and whether they are playback-restricted by region. By and large, the older, less desirable releases are not locked out, the newer ones are.

>>Blu-rays, like SACDs, are not subject to regional encoding in Japan. You can order The Producers blu-ray from Japan and enjoy it on your PS3.<<

You're wrong. Region Coding has indeed been implemented in Japan. The thing is that the blu-ray Region Code for Japan is the same as for the US (Region A). So yes, you can take a disc coded for Japan and play it in a US player, but you can't take a disc coded and locked-out for Japan/US and play it in a European player.

>>you can bet your arse there will be HD-DVD II that provides the means for regional encoding to the exact same extent as blu-ray.<<

I wouldn't bet that. There was a REASON why Region Coding was not implemented in HD DVD, and it was not a technical reason. The current HD DVD players enforce legacy DVD-V region coding, forgoshsakes! Even if a mythical HD DVD II with Region Coding should emerge, one can always choose not to buy into it. The cork is already out of the bottle on HD DVD though.

Nevertheless, you specifically said that we shouldn't engage in what-ifs, and here you are doing it.

>>See, this is where I'm not understanding you. Are you saying that 24-bit 48 kHz lossless PCM sounds as good as DolbyTruHD? <<

I'm afraid I'm not understanding you, because this sentence makes absolutely no sense. Are you comparing identical lossless PCM to lossless PCM and saying there is a difference???? Or are you comparing an apple to an orange, and saying they are different? Of course they are! Please clarify the point you are trying to get across.

>>Are you saying that data storage capacity and data rates don't matter? That it's just a lie propagated by blu-ray adopters?<<

No, that's not what I'm saying. Try reading what I wrote again.

>>I can't believe he figured out the advantages of blu-ray over hd-dvd before you did!<<

Well, let's see - you've called him a troll in the past, and pretty much accused him of making stuff up. But now you prepared to believe what he posts just because it fits your biases? That's quite a shift in viewpoint! :-)

 

Lack Of Marketing And Availability Of Product On Shelves, posted on July 5, 2007 at 06:55:55
Robertc88


 
Is what IMHO were the chief reasons why it didn't go further. Even though a CD layer is now included on a hybrid and at very little add'l cost and most agree on the hi-rez forum the SACD layer exceeds the sound of the CD is basically irrelavant I suppose for most.

I suppose the addition of another player didn't help matters but there is a double whammy with HD video because one also needs a display capable to show distinct differences.

 

Surprised Then You Are Interested In HD PQ, posted on July 5, 2007 at 07:54:28
Robertc88


 
As the poster above said, you could have gotten a $40 DVD player that would blow the picture quality the PS2 was giving so it doesn't appear it was a major concern for you then.

 

RE: Well, this thread kicked off with statistics about the entire installed base of game consoles, posted on July 5, 2007 at 14:24:37
Jazz Inmate
Audiophile

Posts: 63589
Location: Bay Area, California
Joined: April 5, 2000
 >> >>That isn't all I'm interested in but you need to face the fact that the major studios and their blockbusters are going to drive the direction of HDTV formats.<<
I wonder where you got the idea that I ever disputed this. It certainly wasn't in anything I've written. <<

It's not that you ever disputed it; it's that you have open disdain for the blockbusters as if it's not tied in at all to what you want. I'm just reminding you that it is tied in to what you want.

>> >>studios should be encouraged to use any tools at their disposal to protect their intellectual property in the regions where they own it.<<
I totally disagree with your stance on this issue. 'Nuff said. <<

Well, out of curiosity, where do you draw the line? Sharing between geographical regions where different studios own different titles is ok. So why have studio distribution at all? Is piracy ok? Where are you drawing the line? You can't say regional encoding is unfair without advocating some degree of lawlessness in terms of content ownership.

>> You're wrong. It has indeed been implemented, exactly in the fashion I deplore. Here's a list someone put together showing some of the discs on the market, and whether they are playback-restricted by region. By and large, the older, less desirable releases are not locked out, the newer ones are. <<

But those newer ones are all available in NA, so it's a nonissue.

>> You're wrong. Region Coding has indeed been implemented in Japan. The thing is that the blu-ray Region Code for Japan is the same as for the US (Region A). So yes, you can take a disc coded for Japan and play it in a US player, but you can't take a disc coded and locked-out for Japan/US and play it in a European player. <<

Ok, I'm wrong, but I can play the disc, so again, it's a nonissue.

>> I wouldn't bet that. There was a REASON why Region Coding was not implemented in HD DVD, and it was not a technical reason. <<

Exactly. And it's one of the reasons that only one studio has come out fully supporting HD-DVD (for now) where the rest will never exclusively support it.

>> >>See, this is where I'm not understanding you. Are you saying that 24-bit 48 kHz lossless PCM sounds as good as DolbyTruHD? <<
I'm afraid I'm not understanding you, because this sentence makes absolutely no sense. Are you comparing identical lossless PCM to lossless PCM and saying there is a difference???? <<

Nope. DolbyTruHD involves an algorithm that compresses the code and requires less space on the disc. They may market it as lossless, but lossless PCM is different.

>> Or are you comparing an apple to an orange, and saying they are different? Of course they are! Please clarify the point you are trying to get across. <<

The point I am trying to get across is that greater disc capacity will let you have better quality.

>> >>Are you saying that data storage capacity and data rates don't matter? That it's just a lie propagated by blu-ray adopters?<<
No, that's not what I'm saying. Try reading what I wrote again. <<

I've been reading every post in this thread. I keep saying that blu-ray provides greater storage capacity and is therefore capable of greater quality and you keep saying it's just hype and that I'm a fanboy and cheerleader. I am trying to get you to acknowledge that there are features of blu-ray that do make it superior to HD-DVD regardless of hype or cheerleading, and the storage capacity issue is a no-brainer.

>> Well, let's see - you've called him a troll in the past, and pretty much accused him of making stuff up. But now you prepared to believe what he posts just because it fits your biases? That's quite a shift in viewpoint! <<

Well actually I was just kidding around. I was pretty amused when DUI said he sold his Toshiba. But yeah, if he's seen the light I'd think everyone should!
-------------

"I have found that if you love life, life will love you back." -Arthur Rubinstein (1887-1982)

 

RE: Well, this thread kicked off with statistics about the entire installed base of game consoles, posted on July 6, 2007 at 04:45:41
Jack G
Audiophile

Posts: 9741
Joined: September 24, 1999
 >>>It's not that you ever disputed it; it's that you have open disdain for the blockbusters as if it's not tied in at all to what you want.<<<
I have an open disdain for most blockbusters, I'll admit it. My wife likes them a bit, but I could do without seeing 90+% of them.

>>>But those newer ones are all available in NA, so it's a nonissue.<<<
So anything that doesn't effect you personally doesn't count? BTW, there are Blu-ray discs coming out in Europe, that aren't here.

>>>Nope. DolbyTruHD involves an algorithm that compresses the code and requires less space on the disc. They may market it as lossless, but lossless PCM is different.<<<
The difference is that uncompressed PCM takes up more space. Both are lossless.

>>>The point I am trying to get across is that greater disc capacity will let you have better quality.<<<
That's an assumption, not a given.

Jack

 

RE: I'll reserve judgement on BSM and I'm not likely to waste my money to find out., posted on July 6, 2007 at 05:01:58
Jack G
Audiophile

Posts: 9741
Joined: September 24, 1999
 I watched BSM last night. The movie was actually pretty good. The PQ was very good, but didn't blow me away-didn't make me go "WOW".
I read Richard's tirades over at AVS forum, an have come to the conclusion that I really don't like him. I won't go into details or name calling, but he likes to air his dirty laundry in public. I also think the VC-1 comparison will be suspect. I seriously doubt if I'll be buying any of his products in the future.

Side Note: I did order a Samsung BDP-1200, that should get here by next week. I ordered 4-5 movies from Amazon, and that will do me with regards to BD for a while.

 

RE: Well, this thread kicked off with statistics about the entire installed base of game consoles, posted on July 6, 2007 at 16:23:34
Jazz Inmate
Audiophile

Posts: 63589
Location: Bay Area, California
Joined: April 5, 2000
 Yeah, as I said earlier, blockbusters may not be our cup of tea, but they do tend to dictate the direction of the industry. Especially in matters of format.

As for the current implementation of regional encoding, it's a nonissue if it doesn't affect me, you or anyone else.

As for DolbyTruHD, as I said, I was invited to listen to this and to the uncompressed PCM in the mixing room of Dolby Labs in San Francisco, as Sony was preparing to author a demo blu-ray disc. There was a difference and to my ears (and the ears of the Sony audio guy), the unmolested PCM was better. DolbyTruHD does compress the PCM and uncompressing it requires another step in the D->A.

If greater disc capacity can allow 7.1 PCM where HD-DVD requires greater compression, I'm all for it.


-------------

"I have found that if you love life, life will love you back." -Arthur Rubinstein (1887-1982)

 

Not by much, posted on July 7, 2007 at 06:16:22
Jack G
Audiophile

Posts: 9741
Joined: September 24, 1999
 They aren't selling all that well, and the attatch rate is still about 1 or less, meaning that the "trojan horse effect" isn't working as well as planned. Even movies aimed at kiddies like the Pirate movies are selling in only the tens of thousands. To assume that the main BD player should be the PS3, is foolish. Most people are not gamers, and do not want a game console in their living room-especially for $600.
Jack

 

RE: Well, this thread kicked off with statistics about the entire installed base of game consoles, posted on July 7, 2007 at 06:30:58
Jack G
Audiophile

Posts: 9741
Joined: September 24, 1999
 >>>Yeah, as I said earlier, blockbusters may not be our cup of tea, but they do tend to dictate the direction of the industry. Especially in matters of format.<<<
That must be why they lost money last quartet, and are shutting down some stores.

>>>As for the current implementation of regional encoding, it's a nonissue if it doesn't affect me, you or anyone else.<<<
But is DOES effect me, and it certainly effects Europeans, that's the whole point.
I can inport HD DVDs from Europe that I might not be able to with BD. Europeans (Aussies too) can increase their collections by inporting HD DVDs from the US, that aren't available there.

I'll take your word on the PCM, but I'll leave the high end audio for my stereo. Movie sound is secondary for me. It certainly won't be the biggest selling point for the masses. Do you think they'll tell the difference with their $200 Bose surround sound?
I couldn't care less about 7.1.
Jack

 

BTW, about Paramount., posted on July 8, 2007 at 15:09:36
Jack G
Audiophile

Posts: 9741
Joined: September 24, 1999
 According to insiders over at AVS, Paramount doesn't use the same encodes for both formats. Sony does the AVC for BD, and an idependant house does the AVC for HD DVD.
Jack

 

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