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In Reply to: LOTR. posted by patrickU on January 08, 2004 at 01:30:21:
First of all, have you read the books? If you haven't, and your post hints at this, then labeling Tolkien a racist based on your perceptions about Peter Jackson's films is little more than posthumous libel since he's no longer around to respond in defense of such harsh accusations.>>> "The author was a great admirer of Generalisimo Franco, and love and admire the Hun race." <<<
So what? Charles Lindburg, the much admired American aviator (i.e., in the U.S. & France), was a great supporter of Adolf Hitler early on, as were some members of the royal family in Great Britain; those views tempered when Hitler's goals became more apparent. America was allied with Stalin in WWII, even friendly toward the Russian leader, but became bitter adversaries several years afterwards. Many folks admire Napoleon, and yet he had far reaching ambitions of conquest and was capable of ruthlessness.
As far as "love and admire the Hun race" is concerned, that's classic hate mongering rhetoric. What you could have said was that he was fascinated with the German people and their history, which is probably true. Most of the great European legends and myths have Germanic or Nordic origin; what historian or writer of fantasy wouldn't love the richness of these cultures?
>>> "Of course now treated a la Mc Donald there are only a few traces left in it." <<<
Naturally, you had to get in a dig at Peter Jackson's magnificient take on Tolkien's Ring Trilogy. No offense, but personally I find the inflammatory nature of your posts on this subject more akin to Jack-in-the-Box. Note: Since you live in France you may be unfamiliar with Jack-in-the-Box, but over here the general consensus is that it's a lower grade of "quisine" than McDonald's.
BTW, these are just my opinions; I'm sympathetic to your feeling uncomfortable about certain aspects of Peter Jackson's films, but they should be kept apart from a consideration of Tolkien's works sice they've been adapted to a different medium. The so-called racism you describe isn't at all apparent although occasional insensitivity might be attibuted simply because the story deals with various races and their foibles. To try painting these films with the broad brush of "racism" is both unfair and, since I assume you to be an intelligent fellow, disingenuous.
AuPh
Follow Ups:
n
"Of all the elf-banes, the most deadly". Perhaps the Russian army
advancing on Berlin? Regards,J.R.
I see no reason to unduly complicate Tolkien's work with PC elements that detracts more from his mythology than adds to it.AuPh
Maybe there is a lot more to his works than perceived. Afterall, Henry Ford, Chuck Lindbergh, and King Eddie . . .
Well, English is a Germanic language. Tolkien was a highly respected
philologist and held the Rawlinsonian chair of Anglo-Saxon at Oxford
until his death. The ancient Germanic languages are very similar: if
you can read Anglo-Saxon, you can get by in Old High German, Old
Saxon, Old Frisian, Old Norse, etc. He used the literature and glosses
of the old Germanic for many proper names in LOTR; for example, the
dwarf names are mostly from the Old Norse poetic Edda; "warg" is Old
Norse for "wolf, "wetwang" is Old Norse for "swamp". This hardly makes
him Wagnerian. He scoffed at the notion that the ring of Sauron was
the same as the Nibelungen ring, except that they were both "round".
The racism slur is preposterous and offensive and tedious worst kind
of PC thinking. Tolkien was a original and creative writer: he was
influenced by many ancient Germanic sources, but not ruled by them.
Regards,J.R.
BTW, the elven names and language are Uralic (Finnish in this case)
in form.
..."The Wit & Wisdom of George W. Bush" the autobiographical pamphlet here, are we? No siree! We're talkin' about the highly regarded works of JRR Tolkien, one of the foremost 20th Century literary authors and a man who made a point of not wearing his politics, prejudices or religious views on his sleeve! Tolkien reputedly said as much himself in denying the symbolic nature of his Rings Trilogy and it would be nice if folks would have the decency to respect the late author's word.BTW, Hank Ford, Lindy and would be King Eddie are far from literary giants even though the former two are well respected for their personal successes. The fact that all of them made poor philosophical/political judgments doesn't necessarily reflect poorly on their personal achievements, does it?
AuPh
It does if they are poisonning the air around with faschistoid " Gedankengut "
They didn't have a "Final Solution" to rid the world of anybody but themselves. The Silmarillion might clear this up for you.
No, they did not have a " final solution " but their thinking bring to the road to...
And more bitter, some have not learnt the lesson.
What KZ? What Jews or Gipsys...
You could have miss that one!
But ok.
Chronology:
it was something in the film I did not like ( see back in my first post ) and still do not like. A hint of a superior race. Vague and diffuse, BUT there, in my feeling.
So, I have just read two days ago an article on him that he was a Franco lover and was believing in a superior race.
I do not like Franco and I dispise him as well as the people who thinks they belong to a superior race.
You should have talk about Ford... he delivered steel to Hitler and was strongly anti -semit.
Inflammatory post?
Of course you could find some excuse to Mussolini too.
And in some way it was fashionnable to be anti-Jews in the 20 and 30´s, see Agatha C. or Simenon or...works it is tainted.
Is that good? For a far right extremist certainly but not for me.PS: I live in Germany.
Somewhere along the line I got the distinct impression that you were French; no offense was intended and I sincerely mean that.The fact that you live in Germany may explain, at least in some small part, your sensitivity to issues of anti-semitism; in any case, I respect that. I doubt that any culture, America's included, can ever shed the stigma of mistreating some ethnic group, race and/or minority during the course of it's growth and developement. Respecting and acknowledging history is indeed important, as I've pointed out before while quoting the famous words of Georges Santayana, but so is making a concerted effort NOT to overreact.
Which brings me to your opinions of LoTR. Personally, I think you may be overreacting a bit to Tolkien's works and Jackson's filmed versions, perhaps reading things into them that just aren't present. Tolkien himself stated as much in his own lifetime when armchair philosophers were trying to extract symbolism from the texts of his work. Tolkien stated emphatically that he was simply trying to tell a good story. So, reading things into his works, whether philosophically profound or diabolical, misrepresents the man's legacy, IMHO.
Peter Jackson, I believe, was merely trying to translate a complex and theoretically unfilmable literary work loved by generations of readers into a cinematic vision accessible to a generation which had never read Tolkien while not offending the loyal legion who had read them.
AuPh
I do not care if one is jewish, Catholic, French or American or whatever! What I do care is the quality of an individual.
My father did almost lost his life in fighting the Nazis and ruin his life at doing it. That and a lot more. That would certainly explain my sensivity on this theme.
Have you ever saw the KZ? have you ever visit the Auschwitz and consort? I did! Have you ever look in the eyes of the beast directly in the eyes? Have you ever stand in front of the hairs & shoes & glasses of this poor people? Did you stand in the gaz chambers with your own body? Have you seen the marks left on the walls from theirs finger nails? I did.
So everything that come nears from racism, I fight. And how.
But the point is, you will certainly concord with me on this, was Tolkien a racist, did he believe at the " super race " That is what I am going to try to find out. Until now I have only light suspicions, but I do not want to be injust, and will go seriously after this matter now that it has escalated this way.
Well actually if you want my opinion, I think that YOU did overact! I just said that I did not like this film and that I did feel that they may be some trace on racism in it.
That is all I said, and it was more a question than a definitive view, what still is.
The only thing hat did change now is my iron will to find out. Much noise for nothing maybe but life can be also made of this.
We will see.
Your thinking (i.e., or *questioning* as one does when burrowing into weasel territory) that there is "...some trace on(of) racism in it" refering to Tolkien's books and Jackson's films is a very serious allegation. I'm glad that you've decided to look a little harder; Tolkien's books and now the films are highly revered for their simple heroic message and the comraderie of the mythical races joining together to defeat a great evil. Reading more into the characters and storyline than that risks placing subjective interpretations on the material that is less in keeping with the concept of the author/filmmakers than the imagination of the book's/film's critics.AuPh
Accusation ? I was asking if there were trace of racism. Reread my original post.
Granted, we may be having some minor language misunderstanding, but it's hard to miss your inference about racism being in both films and books. No offense, but the only "asking" you've done is in regard to trying to assess whether there's a consensus to your existing opinion.AuPh
You must have really missunderstand me..I never read his books.
But I would really have the opinion of Berbardo as he seems to have read a lot about it!
Any way and that was the starting point the films did leave me a bitter after taste regarding this problems.
That why I was asking myself loudly...what it really was...
You stated (and I quote): "When I saw the films I always felt uncomfortable about some sous-adjacent (under-lying?) racism and wrote so in my comment of LOTR III. Now I know why! The author was a great admirer of Generalissimo Franco..."There you have it! You've indicated that the films convey an underlying racism and the fault lies with the author's books. How could this be interpreted otherwise?
AuPh
Yes and ? I was just been conforted in my suspicion and was glad to hear that I was not the only one who may think this way: The journalist wrote..He was an Franco admirer and loved the " Herren race "..
So, now that this has turned righly so, to a bigger problem, I will do my best to make me a stronger opinion.
If you may read above the Bernardo letter and my answer to it, you will see that we are seriously pushing the envellope.
But will we ever find out?
nt
n
I am always appalled when so " called liberal " can´t see beyond their own nose.
They is only one race: the human one.
But it is so easy for the simpled minded to say..oh Russian...that explain...oh jew..no wonder....and so on...and they take themself seriously.
No wonder all this hate!
n
Fool me once, shame on me!BTW, since he's so wrong about Tolkien, perhaps Patrick just needs to get in touch with his inner-Franco-Prussian-child before making up his mind! ;^)
AuPh
The Brits have Merlin and King Arthur, the Germanic folks have Thor, Loki, Odin, the Italians have Jupiter, Neptune , Apollo...the Greeks have their Olympians, so what do the French have as far as mythology? Jerry Lewis?
In the Atlantic coast, they had everything Celtic mythology had, basically the same people who built Stonehenge, with a cult to the Great Goddess: look at Graves´s "The White Goddess", and you´ll find much about it.In the North, they shared the same set of beliefs Germanic people had.
In the South, they were sharing Mediterranean mythologies, as that sea was a good medium to bring people in touch with one another, so they first shared what Phenicians, and Greeks, brought with them, and what later became organized under the Roman empire: if you look carefully, you´ll easily see that all Mediterranean countries shared pretty much the same gods, albeit their original Greek, Egyptian, and even Babylonian names were changed (Zeus became Jove, Ares became Mars, Isis became split between Hera and Aphrodite, later June and Venus,...) Originally, there was the Great Goddess, which was multifaceted, and who later, when her cult was overthrown by the patriarchal gods, starting in the East when the Acheans brought Zeus to power, and the cult to YHVH threw politheism away in what today is that troubled part of the world, she was split into different goddesses. A very good work on that was done by Marija Gimbutas, who wrote several books like "The Language of the Goddess", "The Civilization of the Goddess", and "Goddesses and Gods of Old Europe".
And, on a lighter, more appropriate to this forum, side of it, you can always look at "Asterix and Obelix"...
Regards
BF
I did not care for an answer as Denn was jocking. I think that even in the film there is one( forget his name ) who belong to the French branch...
nt
I guess he goes down well with wine and cheese. ;^)AuPh
where his character Stanley, the speechless bellhop, mistakes a VW Beetle engine for trunk luggage and carries it, still running, into the guests room
Perhaps clever mime is more appreciated in French culture, no?
Graham
I believe that line comes from either a Clint Eastwood or Bond film and was uttered after a villainous mime recieved his just reward; at any rate, I do appreciate a clever pun now and them, especially when it's a crowd pleaser that places things in proper perspective. ;^)Cheers.
AuPh
Grinagog has not text
nt
"A little government and a little luck are necessary in life, but only a fool trusts either of them".
-P. J. O'Rourke
n
nt
Tolkien had racism in his brilliant mind when first he wrote..."In a hole in the ground, there lived a Hobbit...." It's fantasy guys, fantasy. Have you read CS Lewis science fiction trilogy Audi? In the third book "That Hideous Strength" he references Tolkiens work.
Has anyone seen the 1043 American film "Mission to Moscow" which is
PRO Stalin? It was made to focter good will between the allied America and England and the U.S.S.R.
I have. It was originally shown as "The North Star" and was Gregory Peck's screen debut! As you pointed out, it was made to help foster goodwill towards the Soviets. When American policy towards the Soviet Union changed, it was re-edited and retitled "Mission to Moscow." Interesting film no matter what version you see. Would enjoy seeing the two versions back to back.
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