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In Reply to: immersion in a movie- does this happen with DVD? posted by tunenut on March 21, 2005 at 17:25:14:
the only time i go to the cinema these days is when i get a media pass to a premiere.can a properly set up home theatre be immersive? absolutely. do i consider many setups to be optimal? probably not. is it more cost effective to go to the cinema than spending the big bucks to get it "right" at home? dunno.
picture quality: sure, 35mm has more resolution, and NTSC/PAL isn't optimal. but DVDs these days are transferred from pristine film prints and i have a light meter calibrated projector that is gamma and colour temperature accurate, whereas the quality at your local cinema suffers from a less than optimal print with colour degradation etc. with true HDTV, it goes the other way - i prefer HDTV at home over the cinema anyday. digital projection at the cinema may swing it back the other way again. but note that, as some have pointed out, the apparent resolution is limited by your eyes, screen size and viewing distance more than the inherent resolution of the media.
sound quality: no doubt about it - home on my 7.1 setup is far better than any cinema i've been too, and i've been to some fancy ones.
distractions: i don't like crowds, and i like the comfort of home, plus the ability to press pause. any reasonable home theatre will be in a dedicated room or semi-dedicated to optimize the viewing experience.
amenities: yes, the "premium class" seats are comfortable, but i prefer my leather recliner sofa :-) plus i pay supermarket prices for food and drink :-)
Follow Ups:
Digital projection will keep me at home. It looks godawful and almost makes me sick, even just to think about it. (Granted I haven't checked it out for a year.)Digital sound is no great shakes either; always I look for the Sony SDDS exhibitor, far and away the best of the lot.
"The quality at your local cinema suffers from a less than optimal print with colour degradation etc." You talkin' to me?! Then think again. I attend widely here in Boston and around South Florida and South California and *never* have witnessed optical degradation. Oh, the occasional dim bulb -- but I always complain and get a coupla free passes for later.
I'm glad to hear you attend to the gamma, color temp etc. -- most don't, and I'm sure you have mounted a good presentation.
clark
"Digital projection will keep me at home. It looks godawful and almost makes me sick, even just to think about it. (Granted I haven't checked it out for a year.)"
I remember my first experience with digital projection. It was interesting. No flicker and a perfectly stable image. Yet it was horrible. Harsh looking with very poor ability to render subtle gradations in color or value. Pixilation and aliasing problems up the wazoo anytime the image moved with any speed. The last digital projection I saw was of Master and Comander. Much better than before but the problems are still there.
"Digital sound is no great shakes either; always I look for the Sony SDDS exhibitor, far and away the best of the lot."
I don't know to blame the system or just the ridiculous levels that are commonly used. Way toooo loud.
"'The quality at your local cinema suffers from a less than optimal print with colour degradation etc.' You talkin' to me?! Then think again. I attend widely here in Boston and around South Florida and South California and *never* have witnessed optical degradation. Oh, the occasional dim bulb -- but I always complain and get a coupla free passes for later."
Some of us are lucky to live in big cities with competent theaters. I have heard this is a real problem in many areas.
"I'm glad to hear you attend to the gamma, color temp etc. -- most don't, and I'm sure you have mounted a good presentation."
In the end video is just video. Leaves you wondering what the original image really looked like.
a
If that's what you're getting, I suspect you watched something projected thruogh a single-chip DLP, which uses a colorwheel to provide the RGB. Not only headache-inducing to some, but also will cause some folk to see rainbows. I'm one of 'em. I also get the DLP Headache. The rainbow problem, to me, is worst in black/white film, of which I tend to watch quiate a bit of.However, real digital cinema (not home theater, I"m talking about a real theater) won't use a single-chip solution, they'll use a 3-chip solution. No colorwheel. No more headaches, no more rainbows.
While I have yet to see a cine digital projector in use, I can say the home units are getting extremely good.
Mine's a low-end Panasonic with 3 LCD chips. No screendoor, smooth, quite film-like, great color. Contrasty enough to play cartoons with punch, snap and authority. Rez is 720x1280 which is the minimum I'd accept. With LCD, anything lower than that puts you into the screendoor arena.
This is the first time I've been able to actually use a home theater digital projector, both in price and performance. Earlier units were so bad it was not even funny, back then CRT was truly the only way -- but not anymore. CRT willl still get you True Blacks, which I don't know why everyone raises such a stink about -- most film projectors I've seen won't do 100% true black either.
The digital projector scene is moving so fast it isn't funny. Compared to audio, digi pj is moving at warp seven. My brand-new Panasonic AE700 will be a relic, a Jurassic memento, as soon as its replacement comes out. Which won't take but a year or so.
As for immersing in home theater, well, once I went the projector and large-screen route (37* at 11 ft, or 87" x 47"), getting sucked in by the program is *much* easier. The TV got in the way. It has to, because a simple black-and-white comic book will instantly get me immersed, if the subject matter is up my alley. The TV didn't let me get that, I don't know why. The front projector + huge screen lets it happen very easily.
As for audio, what good is all the names you flung about, what good is the great speakers (altec, jbl and klipcsh are cinema favorites) if the speakers are broken (Carmike Cinemas were really bad about that), the equipment is badly calibrated? I get better, more musical, more dynamic sound at home, and frankly, my HT rig is all bottom-feeder. Imagine if I paid as much attention to my HT sound system as I do to my 2-ch.
Cinemas are toast. That's my prediction. They shall continue on as social gathering places, but for serious, studious watching of film / cartoons, my humble little place has got 'em beat.
And one thing you can't do at a real cinema: You can light up a pipe, and help that immersiveness become a wee bit more vibrant, without incurring the wrath of the law ;o) Or pour yourself a whiskey, or whatever floats your boat. Your movie palace, your rules.
Next step is to get a calibration system like SMART III or such, I don't think I can do any more than I have with DVE. But at least I know it's set up as well as I can get it.
Take a gander some day, see what I'm talking about.Certainly there are problems on the home front. That's why I fall back on good ol' CRTs.
Calibration in theatres? Of course, but at home too. Still, if you haven't heard an HPS-4000 installation -- you don't know what you're missing.
clark
I've done it on mine and the difference is amazing. Suddenly, all the colours look "right."
*** It looks godawful and almost makes me sick, even just to think about it. (Granted I haven't checked it out for a year.) ***You would be in the minority, based on research i have read. And your last comment says it all, really.
*** Digital sound is no great shakes either; always I look for the Sony SDDS exhibitor, far and away the best of the lot. ***
Your point is? Regardless of the quality of the soundtrack, it's a lot easier to get better sound at home simply because it's a smaller venue with a limited number of people. at the cinema, you can pretty much forget about getting "the sweet spot", if there is in fact one.
my room has been measured to be +/-3dB from just under 40Hz to 20kHz except for a notch at 120Hz - a typical theatre sounds quite boomy to me and of course you can forget about a flat response above 12kHz in a large venue with lots of people.
And if you like SDDS, then you probably haven't heard the audio dropout issues that other people complain about.
*** I attend widely here in Boston and around South Florida and South California and *never* have witnessed optical degradation. ***
I suspect your standards are different from mine. Colour degradation is a known phenomenon, and is measurable even after a few screenings. Also, the colour temperature in a typical cinema is way off - I've done some measurements. I am the sort of person who gets annoyed by false colours - you don't seem to be, so that's fine.
Notwithstanding that the color palette is equally, or more, the choice of the director (or the DP), making such judgements risky, it actually happens that my engineering background is in optics so I'm a finicky customer. (Careful whom you try to put down.)"You would be in the minority, based on research i have read." Hooboy! Polls have been taken. Great. Um, doesn't that sort of thing rather contradict the sort of detailed concern you clearly have?
"And your last comment says it all, really." Yes, perhaps I should check digital out again, but I hate headaches.
"Your point is?" Pretty clear. I go for good sound and I seek it out. Many houses here, as in Westwood (exhibition capital of the world) are equipped with HPS-4000. Lacking that, many have Kintek. How can you even *hope* to compete with those systems, at home? (Perhaps you haven't heard them?...)
"...the audio dropout issues that other people complain about." They all have dropout. Optical had it, mag had it, digital has it. Of course I complain! To the management. Huh? DVDs never have droput? Ha!
As for "Colour degradation", I tend to see films early in their runs, for all the obvious reasons.
clark
*** Notwithstanding that the color palette is equally, or more, the choice of the director (or the DP), making such judgements risky ***Actually, this makes it even more important to render colours accurately. I want to see white as white, not some yellowish-brownish shade. Unless of course that is what the director intended, in which case I don't want to see it as white :-)
But this is precisely what you can't guarantee at a typical cinema.
*** it actually happens that my engineering background is in optics so I'm a finicky customer. (Careful whom you try to put down.) ***
and somehow this makes your comments more valid? very amusing. i notice you don't know my background either, so you try to be careful.
*** Hooboy! Polls have been taken. Great. Um, doesn't that sort of thing rather contradict the sort of detailed concern you clearly have? ***
Note: "research" is not the same as "polls". and where is the contradiction?
*** Many houses here, as in Westwood (exhibition capital of the world) are equipped with HPS-4000. Lacking that, many have Kintek. How can you even *hope* to compete with those systems, at home? (Perhaps you haven't heard them?...) ***
Again, without knowing my background, this is a really funny comment. Hint: someone who gets invited to film premieres is not likely to be lacking in experience. As i've pointed out, it's a lot easier to achieve better results at home for many reasons.
*** DVDs never have droput? Ha! ***
Actually, no. they shouldn't. Unless you have a faulty player and equipment?
*** As for "Colour degradation", I tend to see films early in their runs, for all the obvious reasons. ***
So when you said you've "never" experienced colour degradation you are obviously speaking from a wealth of experience and your "engineering background in optics" :-)
*** it actually happens that my engineering background is in optics so I'm a finicky customer. (Careful whom you try to put down.) *****and somehow this makes your comments more valid? very amusing.**
Yes, actually, it does. Credit where credit's due, madam.
** i notice you don't know my background either, so you try to be careful.**
Never said I did know; I can only speak for myself, which I did. Is there a problem?
*** Hooboy! Polls have been taken. Great. Um, doesn't that sort of thing rather contradict the sort of detailed concern you clearly have? ***
**Note: "research" is not the same as "polls". and where is the contradiction?**
You alleged that lots of people liked it. That "research" sounds to me pretty much like a "poll".
*** Many houses here, as in Westwood (exhibition capital of the world) are equipped with HPS-4000. Lacking that, many have Kintek. How can you even *hope* to compete with those systems, at home? (Perhaps you haven't heard them?...) ***
**Again, without knowing my background, this is a really funny comment.**
Forgive me for being unable to divine your background. That's no cause to go insulting me.
**Hint: someone who gets invited to film premieres is not likely to be lacking in experience.**
No indeed, but perhaps lacking in capacity would be the explanation. Nor does it escape notice that you avoided a direct answer to a simple question.
**As i've pointed out, it's a lot easier to achieve better results at home for many reasons.**
You made the assertion, yes.
*** DVDs never have droput? Ha! ***
**Actually, no. they shouldn't.**
Alas, they do.
*** As for "Colour degradation", I tend to see films early in their runs, for all the obvious reasons. ***
**So when you said you've "never" experienced colour degradation you are obviously speaking from a wealth of experience and your "engineering background in optics" :-)**
Madam, your sarcasm is becoming tiresome. I assume from the spelling that you're British (or the like), which ipso facto makes you better than me. (Unless you're Canadian.) I understand that. I also take "degradation" to apply to the exhibition print, which sets in usually well after I'm outta there. One can *make* it not a problem by avoiding $2 rerun theatres.
clark
*** Yes, actually, it does. Credit where credit's due, madam. ***Forgive me, I did not realise that an "engineering background in optics" suddenly made you an authority on a completely unrelated topic, such as films. Now that I do, I am humbled before your august presence.
*** Nor does it escape notice that you avoided a direct answer to a simple question. ***
Sorry, I was laughing too hard. Did you *really* want an answer? :-) Did you really want me to recite every cinema I've been to around the world (yes, including the good ol' US of A), complete with specs? And once I did, would that have made any difference?
PS: I did enjoy the Return of the King at the Embassy Theatre in Wellington where it was premiered. It was recently restored with the latest and greatest equipment, with Peter's input. But any decent home theatre can do a better job (on the sound, not necessarily picture) - even Peter acknowledges that, and so he should, he's got a killer setup himself. You should hear him go on about little details in the soundtrack that one can only hear at home on the DVD.
*** That's no cause to go insulting me. ***
And I suppose your posts could have made the Dalai Lama proud? :-)
*** No indeed, but perhaps lacking in capacity would be the explanation. ***
Aha, I see: that's your way of "disagree and be pleasant about it y'know".
Thanks for clearing everything up for me.
*** assume from the spelling that you're British (or the like) ***
I'm insulted :-) Hint: Instead of assuming, you could have easily checked with one click of the mouse.
nt
Now we may speak as equals, for I perceive you have a pretty high opinion of yourself. However, I remain baffled:*** Nor does it escape notice that you avoided a direct answer to a simple question. ***
**Sorry, I was laughing too hard.**
Too simple a question for you? "Sorry, I don't do simple questions"?...
**Did you *really* want an answer? :-)**
It's getting rather tiresome asking, so allow me to withdraw it.
**Did you really want me to recite every cinema I've been to around the world (yes, including the good ol' US of A), complete with specs? And once I did, would that have made any difference?**
No, but then, that wasn't the question.
*** That's no cause to go insulting me. ***
**And I suppose your posts could have made the Dalai Lama proud? :-)**
I'd like to think my forbearance is buddhistic.
*** No indeed, but perhaps lacking in capacity would be the explanation. ***
**Aha, I see: that's your way of "disagree and be pleasant about it y'know".**
Madam, when faced with unremitting unpleasantness some of it must rub off. My dharma is not yet perfect.
*** I assume from the spelling that you're British (or the like) ***
**I'm insulted :-) Hint: Instead of assuming, you could have easily checked with one click of the mouse.**
So my assumption was correct.
clark
PS Since you've not seen or heard the best on offer Stateside (or won't admit to it if you have) and since I've not seen or heard what you have done... well... what's more to say?
PPS Oh, this: My optical engineering was in imaging systems, mostly space based. I was inter alia the systems engineer on the Viking Mars Lander Camera, a (of all things) digital optical device; and I even spent some time with American astronauts assessing what they could see in imagery. It's not so irrelevant as you try to make out.
... just returned from our easter vacation where we spent some time at cowra, the site where japanese POWs were interred in WW2, and where the World Peace Bell is located.So, in the spirit of reconciliation, I'll attempt to avoid sarcasm and cheap shots, and answer your questions in as neutral a way as i can.
regarding digital projection: the new 4K digital projectors are just coming onto the market - i would suggest you may like to try these out before forming a definite view. FYI - a lot of post production work on films (such as colour grading) are now done digitally - often at 2K resolution, 4K tends to be reserved for the big budget releases. So the availability of 4K at the theatre means it's "as good as it gets" in terms of resolution - at least for now anyway.
with regards to my "research" which you incorrectly think is based on polling, it's actually based on critical evaluation based on a number of parameters. yes, and they did poll a number of filmmakers as well.
as for your question about "how can i possibility compete ..." with the likes of an HPS-4000: I have definitely experienced an HPS-4000 installation (in the USA - they are very rare outside of USA), so I am speaking from experience. one of the reasons i was laughing was that that would be like asking how can my car possibly compete with a bus? the answer is: well, a bus is designed to carry more passengers, and therefore has more horsepower, but in all the critical aspects (manouevaribility, speed, acceleration, power/weight ratios) any decent car will win over the best bus.
So it is with film soundtracks. Your question is more appropriately framed as: how can an HPS-4000 possibly compete with any decent home theatre, given the constraints of a large venue? the answer is: it can't. the brochure might claim that a typical installation can achieve 112 dB SPL, which is impressive, but this is done using horn drivers, which is not the last word in tonal accuracy. i've already mentioned the freq response issues of a large venue. for critical monitoring, you will note that skywalker sound uses B&W speakers (by coincidence the same brand i use in my home setup).
as for DVD dropouts - the DVD player mechanism includes substantial error correction mechanisms, so it is extremely unlikely to get any dropouts, unless there is a fault in the equipment, or the dropout is present in the original source. by contrast, SDDS encodes information in the area between sprocket holes on the film, which is very susceptible to damage from multiple screenings which leads to dropouts. it's no secret that most theatres with SDDS revert to another format (such as DD or DTS) after a week or so of screening due to dropouts.
finally, if you check my moniker, you will realise i am from sydney, australia (within 10km of the Fox Studios) and i don't have british ancestry. that's why its always dangerous to assume.
as for your background: i have no doubt you are very good at what you do, but it's obvious based on your comments you are not close to the film industry.
a
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