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In Reply to: Plasmas vs CRTs, Resolution posted by Jim Cate on July 04, 2003 at 21:27:05:
Jim, I presume you are referring to the HD plasmas' native resolution of 720p, which is most assuredly defined as HD, and felt by some to be as good or better looking than 1080i.The technologies are very different of course, but I think the fixed pixel displays...plasma, DLP, LCoS...can look fabulous on HD content.
There is no perfect HD display. All types of displays have their advantages and disadvantages. Different brands within each type also have different advantages and disadvantages. The picture quality obtainable on a calibrated set of any kind is more than just the sum of its pixels, it's not purely a numbers game. (Are you an engineer??)
The downconverting isn't necessarily the most limiting factor in PQ. I would say a lot also depends on your viewing habits. How much of what you will watch is DVD? Progressive or not? HD? SD? How well controlled is your room light? What is your main source of programming?
You really need to head over to avsforum.com for the best info on the web re/HDTVs. I went through this dance last fall...and decided to wait (I bought a 34" Philips HD direct view, the 9818 with PixelPlus to tide me over.) CRT RPs are the most bang for the buck you can currently, but they're big, bulky dinosaurs IMO. I hate converging the buggers, the space they consume, the light control they require, the off axis viewing limitations, and their PQ on standard def. Their main advantages are price and the deep blacks/shadow detail/contrast levels they exhibit. Plasmas don't have quite the deep blacks or shadow detail of CRTs, although they're getting close...and the contrast and blasks on the Panasonics is excellent. The Samsung DLPs had a too few bugs last fall, and the Toshiba LCos wasn't out and was very expensive. A lot of people like the Sony Grand Wega LCD, but the blacks aren't quite there for me.
Personally, I think HD generally looks better on the fixed pixel sets, and I'm just waiting to see one of the technologies get down into a more affordable price rnage. That, and hoping they improve the blacks/shadow detail (I use Dark City as a torture test.)
If you can spend serious bucks (around 5 to 7K), take a look at the Toshiba LCoS RP. But don't rule out plasmas if you like the picture just becuase the spec sheet worries you. Some of them, especially the Fujitsus, Panasonics, and Pioneers look gorgeous.
Go to avsforum. They have a vast (and I mean VAST) forum for each type of display...RP, plasma, direct view, projector...and they have many knowledgable people to give you the facts, as well as their subjective opinions.
Follow Ups:
Having recently visited several other sites, including avsforum, I find that the two issues that concerned me relative to most plasma panels may be resolved or obviated in models expected to be released in the near future. For example, the Samsung 70-inch panel is of adequate size and will have 1080 x 920 resolution. To me, a 70-inch screen seems about right for a home theater installation in a medium-to-large room, particularly if the unit is to be mounted on a wall, or further back from the viewing area than most RPTVs. Also, according to some of the contributors to avsforum, several manufacturers will introduce large format panels soon, and 1090x1920 resoluion is expected to be in all the 70" models and is also expected to migrate down to the smaller panels in the future.Jim
I think that many of your points were acknowldeged in my initial note, in which I recognized that the plasmas seem to have better brightness and can be effective on some material, though not so well on others. However,if we are talking about an HDTV for a "home theater" (this IS the home theater discussion section) in a medium size room (e.g., 20 x 15 feet or larger), I don't think that the present flat panel sets would do the job. They are great for viewing DVDs, provided you can position them rather close to your seating area, but they don't provide the "home theater" experience available on a good rear or front projection set of 65 inches or more. - It seems that many buyers of panels plan to position them on a wall, rather than on a stand spaced several feet out from the wall. This would normally mean that, hanging on the wall, they are positioned several feet farther away from the seating area, and rearwardly of the usual position of a RPTV. Logically, assuming that the seating area remains the same, one would need a somewhat larger display area than the 65-inch set positioned several feet out in the room. - In other words, to achieve the same viewing angle, a plasma set of around 80-inches would be about right, assuming, again, that we are talking about a home theater application.
Regarding your suggestion that i'm approaching it the wrong way because I noted that even the high-end plasmas have a resolution less than half that of good 1080i rear projection sets, it's interesting to me that considerations of the resolution of HDTVs in terms of the number of horizontal and vertical lines was considered entirely appropriate and meaningful prior to the advertising of plasma sets, but now, raising that issue seems to be an indication that I'm a "techi" (you asked whether I was an engineer, apparently implying that I have a fixation on specs and technical factors and a limited appreciation of the more important criteria). I suppose that if I were advertising a set costing three times as much as rear projection sets providing substantially better resolution, I might try to come up with "techi" inuendos as well.
Regarding the comments on 720p vs 1080i, my present set is a Zenith 65-inch rear projection HD with 9-inch CRT projection tubes, which I have had for around three years. (My interest in plasmas is the eventual replacement of my present set when, or if, a true 1080i panel set of comparable display size is introduced.) In our area, there are several stations broadcasting in 720p, and three broadcasting in 1080i, plus several 1080i stations on satellite. On my set, the 1080i broadcasts are SUBSTANTIALLY clearer and more detailed and more impressive than the 720p programs. - It's like looking at a football game through an open window. And although 1080i pictures aren't available on DVD yet, it seems likely that the blue laser HD systems will be available fairly soon. In any event, as indicated previously, I wouldn't want to spend $10,000 on a set that won't be ready when HD DVDs come on the market.
The point I was trying to make is that the HD plasma sets are being promoted in a very deceptive manner, and customers are being assured that they provide the same or better resolution than 1080i rear projection sets, which simply isn't true with respect to the better quality RP sets.
Jim
Jim
#1 The reason 1080i may look better on your set may be because it cannot display 720p properly (ie, it downconverts 720p to 1080i). There are very few sets capable of native rate 720p. And yes, 720p is more demanding (1080i is just 540p alternated). It's funny you should mention football, as with all of the action, sports events benefit more from 720p as opposed to 1080i (Why do you think that ESPN's venture into HD will be in 720p?).#2 If you want BIG, Samsung announced release of a 70"+ 1920 x 1080p plasma for sometime in 2004. Others (Fujitsu, Panasonic and Pioneer) are sure to follow. There are 60" - 63" plasmas available right now. However, if you would have looked at the avsforum suggestion, you would have read numerous threads on the size issue. Many RPTV owners, including former 50" and 65" viewers, would not go back to CRT after moving to a 42" or 50" plasma. You may or may not feel the same way.
#3 When Blu-Ray finally gets here, it won't contain the "i" word (interlaced, or anything about HD-DVD, for that matter). It will be progressive (either 720p or 1080p). Maybe by then you'll be able to move on to better technology -- progressive. Since the morons at Warner Bros (who proposed their own super-compressed red laser HD format and got KO'd by the DVD Forum along with NEC/Toshiba's blue laser proposal) own part of the copyright for the "DVD" designation, Sony et al aren't about to pay those idiots royalties just to be able to use the letters D V D (that's largely why it's called the "Blu-Ray" disc -- not just because of the color of the laser).
#4 I'd suggest that you educate yourself on the pros and cons of different video displays before you knock ANY of them. As was already stated, avsforum holds a wealth of information -- and it's FREE. You'd also do well to read Joe Kane's articles in WidescreenReview magazine (not FREE, but well worth the price).
#5 Harmonia gave you some excellent advice (avsforum.com). Unfortunately, you took it the wrong way. Judging from the tone and attitude that you are "projecting", you do not care for what plasma offers in the least. Why'd you even ask?
Nevertheless, it remains the case that HD plasma sets are being promoted and marketed as if they provide the same resolution as HD rear projection HDTVs, which is misleading, to say the least. It's also true that the prices for HDTV panels are substantially higher than those for RP HDTV projection sets with displays of equivalent size and resolution.You scolded me for not researching this issue on avsforum. - Actually, I have referred to avsforum regarding this and other issues, and I had bookmarked the site long ago. However, I haven't seen these particular issues discussed. I'll certainly admit that I may not have been sufficiently diligent in my search on avsforum and other sites, and I'll try harder in the future. (Actually, I hadn't realized that we are supposed to research our questions on other sites before asking them on AA.)
Why did I ask the questions? I have been impressed with some of the high end panels, and I would be interested in getting one in the future if it has the same resolution and size as my present set. (I have large dipole speakers, and I think that a panel HDTV mounted on the wall, in place of my present RPTV, would result in better sound.) I'm also looking for further information about the Sony SXRD projection system, which I understand may be introduced next year in rear and/or front projection sets, and is said to provide true 1080x1920 displays with substantial improvements in brightness and contrast, even when projecting a large image.
The 70-inch Samsung with 1080 x 1920 resolution sounds like a great choice. - Do you have a rough estimate of the expected price?
Jim
This part of AA is for those who are also interested in HT. However, it is far from what you'll see at avsforum.com (except for every once in a while). Depending on the question, I usually direct people over to AVS because, if they at least have a general understanding of QUALITY video and HT, they'll find much more information and better answers to their questions because that site is more involved in HT and video.However, in general, I don't direct audio questions from there to here. This forum (the audio part of AA) tends to be very blunt and most direct. If you read the audio discussions from AA and then compare them to AVS, well... feelings might get hurt coming here from there. That's not to say that there aren't smart "audio" people taking part in AVS discussions. It's just that the atmosphere (like on HI-REZ or CABLE, for instance) is something that they might shy away from (here it's bare fists as opposed to gloved "love-taps").
Front projector is still the only way to go if you want size (talking 80 - 120" screens). If you have the space, RPTV will do. But if you want WOW!!!, plasma is the way to go. And "that" is just my opinion. Just look at the "display" section at AVS -- it's rather "divided" (pun intended).
The announced Samsung 70", and I'm sure those that follow, will probably be $20k and up. Maybe someone will pull a fast one and get the price below this (can you say $19,999.99?), but I wouldn't bet on it. At least not right away.
And now for something completely different:
The Samsung 70" plasma panel seems to be a great choice for many home theater applications. - Samsung has apparently solved the problem of limited resolution noted in other panels; the screen is big enough to permit positioning the set against a wall and viewing the set from a convenient seating area spaced from the screen; the problem of bulk and space taken up by a large RPTV would be obviated; and the set apparently provides great color and brilliance, typical of other plama panels, permitting vewing without worrying too much about the background light level. - The ONLY potential problem I can think of regarding this set is the matter of cost. (Now if I only had some money!)Regarding the comments re the "blunt" and "direct" approach of discussions on AA, I'm not exactly a newbie to such discussions. (I spent some time defending gun control and discussing the Second Amendment on an NRA/gunners group, for example.) However, my understanding of AA has been that a monitor will step in if the discussions become too pointed.
In any event, I'll continue enjoying the 1080i pictures on my Zenith 65W, but I'll put the Samsung 70 on my "check it out" list, along with the Sony SXRD system.
Jim
I agree with you that the more pixels the better, in theory. There are, however, not many displays which will actually resolve 1080 at the momement. A CRT with 9" tubes is one of the few. There are no fixed pixel displays out right now (except the LCOS RPTV by Hitachi, I think); and hardly any of the HDTV-capable displays that are CRT based will actually resolve this resolution. From what I've read, 7" tubes definitely won't do it. Maybe your RPTV will. There is definitely a lot more to the overall video experince than resolution. I also second the idea of going to AVSForum, just because there are so many diverse video experiences there. Plasma people in general are more concerned with minimizing the weakness of their display (contrast, black level and detail) than overall resoluion. I bought a Sony 42" HD display 3 yrs ago, and have been enjoying it ever since; HD looks fabulous. Unfortunately this display (1024 x 1024, allegedly) has severe weakness when it comes to displaying dark or low contrast material. Had I researched more, I probably would have either "settled" for a Panny EDTV or waited.enigma
...as I said above. Very nice it is, too.But I agree with you. You're quite right about9" CRTs. I didn't want to go into much detail and just thought the original poster would find more uselful info at AVS, if uselful info was what he was looking for.
There is more to the HD video experience than resolution alone, and the various technologies are implemented by different manufacturers with varying degrees of success...the Panny 42" ED plasma looks great. The darks and contrast is wonderful, although the shadow detail doesn't rival the best CRTs. I almost bought one myself.
Where have I heard that before?Anyway, click on the link for some info on what Panasonic has done with their new 6 series -- commercial -- and (possibly) consumer models regarding (former?) plasma weaknesses. Scroll down about 1/3 to the post by "Brucer". Some of the "tech talk" may be a bit tedious for some, but there doesn't seem to be any bad news (ie, it's all good!).
Also in that post is a bit of data about bandwidth for HDTV resolution. Look at 720p and 1080i. This should clear up any misconceptions about what rate is more demanding. It also means that 1080i native resolution displays won't do real justice to 720p signals, regardless of display type.
By the way, besides Samsung, Panasonic is rumored to be working on a BIG (70"+ ?) plasma. So are the folks at LG Electronics (71"). I don't see actual releases happening before fall 2004/spring 2005, but intense competition and increased PR might speed up the to-market dates.
Just to be clear, plasma isn't for everyone. And even those who feel plasma is right for them might not be able to integrate it into their setup or layout. Everyone's situation is different.
Now on to the news:
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