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In Reply to: Okay, I'll try here... posted by oscar on June 08, 2004 at 19:42:17:
Poor audio? Says who? You're the first person I have seen say something negative about the Denon's audio.The majority of people that are shelling out the money for the DVD5900 are doing so for the audio (and the DVI output). Via DVI, many of the inexpensive players can nearly equal the picture quality of this player. However, none of them can match the sound quality -- by a good bit. And that's why owners don't mind spending the $.
Follow Ups:
5900 may (or may not) blow away anything below $2000 in terms of audio quality, but I doubt it'll compete with some of the far more expensive players (that's a supposition based on vague recollections of folks who have listened with probably better ears than myself). I haven't located a local shop yet which actually has a 5900 so I can audition in the home.OTOH, I should expect a significant improvement in PQ, even over the 5900 with the more expensive players. Re: the expected TLC in circuit design they put into the audio sections ought to also result in benefits in the video sections. I'm not convinced this is happening.
Here's my question: what's wrong with having a dedicated player for audio (with no video) and a dedicated player for video (with HomeTheater audio)? Are people that cheap?Just because a manufacturer is well respected in audio doesn't mean they'll do a respectable job in the video department. Audio engineers and designers can't always make the transition to video designing and do it well (the same is true with video-to-audio designers). There is a learning curve and many of them have a healthy climb ahead.
Below is a link to the Secrets site. They mostly deal with video in the shootout and, as you will see from the link, High End in audio may not mean High End in video.
"what's wrong with having a dedicated player for audio (with no video) and a dedicated player for video (with HomeTheater audio)?"A lot is wrong, for instance having to have two machines, but more important, many people, me included, put sound well above image, and enjoy very much watching and listening to good concert DVDs, there are plenty, how would you do that with the two players ?
My Arcam FMJ DV27 sounds as good as very good CDPs, I compared it at home, and it has a very good image to match, also, if I want top video, I can do the SDI mod and get a good processor...
Antonio Melo Ribeiro
But there's nothing wrong with two players dedicated to what they do best.The best multi-format player will never match the best dedicated video or dedicated audio player. If you are happy with the Arcam, why are you complaining? You like the video -- wonderful. You like the audio -- wonderful. Enjoy it.
By the way, what concert DVDs are you listening to? The majority of them are encoded with a Dolby Digital soundtrack. I know you are not going to tell me that this " multi-channel MP3 " represents "high quality", right? Unless you are listening to some of the higher quality PCM concert DVDs (many opera and classical music DVDs), the audio capability of your Arcam is going to waste.
> > > how would you do that with the two players ? < < <
Is this a serious question?
> > > how would you do that with the two players ? < < <This is a perfectly valid question, dont be upset because you cannot answer it... ;)
I have plenty good classical and jazz DVDs, PCM (some 24bits), DTS (for instance Rabih Abou-Khalil), DTS 24/96 audio, even DD 5.1 with very good sound through a good DVD player, like mine...
Shame you cannot enjoy them with your great video crap sound players, as the good ones only plays CDs...
Now, who´s complaining...
Antonio Melo Ribeiro
For audio , you can have a High End CD player, transport/DAC combination, SACD player, SACD/DVD-A player or DVD-A player (whichever you prefer). For video , you can have what you think is the best DVD-V player with regards to the picture quality department. And even if your video preference is for a DVD player that doesn't have great analog output capability, you can always output the digital signal to an excellent receiver/processor for those concert DVDs.
B O O M !
It's now possible to put together an audio/video system with 2 dedicated players.
Or 3 or 4, CD, SACD, DVD-A, DVD, and dedicated sets of speakers too, why not, if you have the money and the room...
Antonio Melo Ribeiro
The system I set up for my wife has dedicated speakers for stereo (2-channel, Velodyne DF-661) and HT multi-channel (5.2, KLH HTiB with 2 subwoofers).It's not High End, but she could care less.
No problem with you having two specialized players, or whatever, just saying you can have it all with one system, wich is more convenient for most people, besides beeing able to use a better player for concert DVDs too, wich happen to be as important as CDs for me...
Antonio Melo Ribeiro
and surround decoding might eliminate the need for a preamp/processor. I already have a separate analog multichannel preamp/switcher so losing my current (and aging) processor, which is no longer being supported, without having to buy a new processor could be a major plus.
How do you control the volume of all of those channels without a surround receiver or processor? You can adjust the signal level for the channels at the initial setup, but these types of players do not have a Master volume control. And with the recording level differences that exist between DVD movie soundtracks, you will need a volume control.
I always thought a preamp WAS a volume control. My analog multichannel (MC) preamp/switcher does have a volume control and also has trim controls for each channel. For DVDs, I'm essentially running the audio through 2 preamps in series(one to do the decoding, the processor DACs have been much better than the DVD player DACs), each with a volume control. For MC and 2-channel music, the source (e.g. SACD player) directly feeds the analog preamp (the analog preamp being much better than the processor preamp).Now if someone could just come with an affordable DVD player with true balanced outputs on 6 channels.
Hi,The Muse Model Eleven can act as a preamp with the optional attenuator module. According to the literature (link posted below), you can go single ended or balanced to your amp(s).
Ken
He's talking about 6 channels of balanced analog outputs from a DVD player. I watched the video on their site and read what was in the links as well. Muse doesn't state that the Model Eleven can be configured for 6 channels of balanced analog outputs.
I thought you were talking about connecting a DVD player with multi-channel analog outputs directly to amps. If there is a multi-channel preamp/switcher involved, then yes, it would definitely work. However, as far as surround formats beyond 5.1, you'd be at a loss. This may not matter to you or you may not want to add more amps/speakers into your system.I don't know of any manufacturer that offers 6 channels of balanced analog outputs from their DVD player. Even Krell's DVD Standard only offers 2 balanced audio channels and that player is about $8k.
...... you can configure a Meridian 800 for 6channel balanced output with volume control.
Besides being rather crappy (as far as pictures of their products), I could find no mention of the 800 being configured for 6 channels of balanced analog outputs. I did see mention of 2-channel balanced analog outputs.Gotta love the Gallery section. I clicked on the 800 link and got a picture of the 800 -- just the front of it and not a detailed one at that. Would you happen to know a site that has a picture of the 800's rear panel and possibly one that shows a 6 channel balanced output configuration?
No, the website does not do justice to the complexity of 800/861 configurations. The 800 takes many of the same plugins as the 861 and, also, one can add two more 2 channel bal-outs configured by menu. On the Meridian config software, one can send analog out to any of many bal outs. I have not tried it.
..then I read the fine print. It seems only the two main channels are truly balanced. Don't know yet about the latest player which allegedly includes SACD support.I have a 26x19 room so 6.1 or 7.1 might be useful with the right processor. The juries still out on the relative benefits of going to additional amplification. But then again, optimizing for 7.1 means de-optimizing for hi-rez (5.1) MC. And then there's still 10.2 ...
It'll be a while for the next processor. I goofed up on the financials and I'm still paying for the Front projector, to be followed "soon" (?)) by a DVD player, then maybe consider the processor...except I also need new speakers...whoops 5/6/7 new speakers...aaagghh.
But sometimes I don't like not being $ Bill Gates $ .
:-)
I'm happy with the sound of my CD player, am not interested in DVD-A or SACD, but want that killer PQ in the Denon? I don't feel like shelling out for the 5900 just to use as a DVD player.Know any killer DVD players with decent build quality with DVI?
Cheers.
all of the DVD players with a digital output (DVI or HDMI) for the video have some sort of issue with them for many people. Then there are the lucky ones (like me) that have one (a Bravo D1) with no issues. For HomeTheater applications, the audio is usually handled by a surround receiver or processor from the player's digital output, so analog DVD player audio quality is not of great concern for most people.What's left for 2004: Samsung HD-941, Panasonic DVD-S97, Sony ? and a few Denon models.
Now the bad news. The Samsung will probably use the "incorrect" digital PC standard on the HDMI output -- the just released HD-841 still has this flaw. The Panasonic may or may not have an MPEG decoder that is equal to or, at least, close to the MEI MPEG decoder found in their earlier stellar players -- one can only hope for the best. Sony's offering will probably have an MPEG decoder that still exhibits decoder errors. As for the Denon models, they're probably the most worth waiting for. Of course, any of the upcoming DVD players with an HDMI output may or may not have the HDMI bug (which clips below black and above white signals).
For video, an SDI output from one of the MEI MPEG decoder based players and a high quality video processor (like the new DVDO iScanHD or Lumagen VisionHDP or VisionPro) is still better than all current and currently planned DVD players in regards to video quality. However, to go this route, the minimum investment on the video end (player, SDI mod kit and processor) is about $2300.
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