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12.146.151.254
To make a long story short, my 5010 is now on the wall and looks incredible. I went into the menus to optimize the picture (thanks for the setting info, Russell and Oscar). What I am seeing had me quite puzzled at first: while output from the PS3 appears more defined than I've seen before, HD broadcasts from my Tivo3 appear quite soft and murky while they used to look more detailed on my old plasma. I'm not sure if this is the unyielding definition of the 5010 allowing me to see every weakness of the picture, or some type of mangled processing from the new Integra that I haven't yet learned to set up correctly. More evaluation is needed on my part.
For the long story, the "white glove service" was a joke. I ended up unboxing the 5010, removing the stand, installing the rear panel mounting brackets and wall-mounting the unit all by myself. I almost dropped it, my back went out and I can barely walk today, but at least the plasma is safe and sound on the wall. While I was plasma-less, I complicated setup greatly by selling my old preamp and getting the Integra DTC-9.8. I was so focused on wiring the 5010 and 9.8 that I forgot to plug the banana jacks back into my left front speaker after I moved it back into position following the plasma installation. So when I turned on my amp, it blew a fuse and turned itself off. It took me a few minutes to figure out what happened, then took me even longer to figure out how to replace the fuse, as I'd never done it for that amp before. Now I know.
I also had some connectivity issues that resulted in no picture on the plasma, and it took some troubleshooting to figure out what was wrong. I consider myself pretty technically proficient, but if I had this much trouble setting up a plasma and 7.1 system, others must find it really daunting. Unless they just buy at Circuit City and use that Firedog service, I mean. I'll try to post a photo later tonight or tomorrow, but it's all coming together nicely.
-------------"I have found that if you love life, life will love you back." -Arthur Rubinstein (1887-1982)
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Compared to high-res content, NTSC looks horrible. Plus, I recommend stretching the picture so it's 16:9 to ensure equal light distribution on the plasma, which makes it look even worse. But it's much better than watching it on an old CRT. Upsampling looks quite good, but it's still a long way from 1080p.
-------------"I have found that if you love life, life will love you back." -Arthur Rubinstein (1887-1982)
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It doesn't make sense to set up your system for the worst looking/sounding material.
-------------"I have found that if you love life, life will love you back." -Arthur Rubinstein (1887-1982)
It looks like I have a happy compromise. We have Brit series from back in the Sixties that we still watch once in a while. Every couple years we go though all of the old scifi series I liked. I shudder to think what Babylon 5 would like on your set.
Different strokes for different folks.
I want to get full hidef at some point, maybe Faroudja will come out with some miracle for me.
You say NTSC looks bad but upsampling looks quite good. I think you mean upscaling rather than upsampling. Upsampling is what happens in audio when the sampling frequency is increased. Upscaling takes a picture with a certain resolution and translates it to a higher resolution for display on a high def screen.
If you've got a 1920 x 1080 display and you're watching a standard def NTSC broadcast, you're watching it upscaled. It has to be upscaled somewhere in order for the display to display it at full screen height, either stretched horizontally to fill the screen or with black borders at the sides. If the upscaling isn't being done elsewhere in a cable box or digital set-top box, or in your receiver, then it's being done by the display itself.
So what you're saying is that standard def TV broadcasts look worse than standard def DVD.
Obviously different quality upscalers are in use for your different inputs. I don't know what your TV source is but if you have the option of external processing for the TV signal you may get better picture quality by swapping the upscaling operation to a different component in your system.
David Aiken
I'm upscaling DVDs via my PS3, which looks quite good. NTSC broadcasts from the Tivo Series 3 don't look nearly as good. Note that the upscaling and stretching that the plasma is doing to make the broadcast fit on the screen is not doing any favors to the picture. The upscaled DVDs appear in a smaller area of the plasma and look best when it is not stretched to fit.Yes, as you point out I used the term upsample instead of upscaled which is incorrect. But it's essentially the same idea. The processing generates the illusion of additional data, but if you look or listen closely you can tell there is no additional definition in the picture or the sound, whether you're upsamplinga CD or upscaling NTSC.
-------------"I have found that if you love life, life will love you back." -Arthur Rubinstein (1887-1982)
I'm in Australia which certainly makes some differences (PAL instead of NTSC) but it also means I'm not familiar with things like the Tivo boxes which we don't have. We've got cable and off air digital broadcasts but Tivo doesn't sell any of its products here, at least yet.
So, pardon my stupidity but does your Tivo box have the ability to upscale and are you upscaling there or sending a standard def signal to the display? Whichever way you're doing it at the Tivo, change it to the other if you have that option and see which works better. You will get an improvement if the device that does the upscaling after the change has a better upscaling chip than the one doing it beforehand. If the signal is passing through a receiver and it has upscaling options you can try that also.
Stretching the picture doesn't help and I'd simply give that up unless you're worried about plasma burn in.
David Aiken
The Tivo3 is essentially a fancy HD DVR that delivers standard and HD broadcasts. It doesn't do upscaling and I mostly use it to watch HD content at 720 or 1080i. So any standard def images via the Tivo3, the plasma is automatically stretching 4:3 to fit the 16:9 screen and this doesn't bother me enough to change the plasma's settings. For one thing, I risk a different luminescence on the sides of the screen over time if I insist on watching all 4:3 content in the middle of the screen. For another, it looks crappy anyway, so why try to put a silk cap on a pig.
The NTSC image from DVD is another matter, and I do use the upscaler in the PS3 for that.
-------------"I have found that if you love life, life will love you back." -Arthur Rubinstein (1887-1982)
If the Tivo signal passes through a receiver and the receiver has upscaling, you may get better results with it but I somehow doubt it.
David Aiken
Much of the content from the Tivo is already 1080i, so my intention is to pass it unprocessed through the preamp.
-------------"I have found that if you love life, life will love you back." -Arthur Rubinstein (1887-1982)
I am seeing definition that is really stunning. I don't know if I've properly tweaked the settings or my new components/cables have broken in sufficiently, but I love the picture I am getting. Absolutely incredible!
-------------"I have found that if you love life, life will love you back." -Arthur Rubinstein (1887-1982)
You are now finally seeing it.
Enjoy,
Jack
Most people in the HD world are using a display maxing out at 720p or 1080i with component cables or DVI. Very few have a setup using 1080p and HDMI, and even fewer have a top-rated display.
-------------"I have found that if you love life, life will love you back." -Arthur Rubinstein (1887-1982)
I don't really consider 720 HD, more like Mid-def. It has half the pixels of 1080. As you have seen, the difference is quite noticeable. Remember, you'll have to sit fairly close to get the advantages of 1080. see link.
Jack
The most dramatic improvement is the black level. I always enjoyed watching with the light on before. Now I'm turning it off and just stunned by the detail I'm seeing in darker areas of the picture. My old pioneer looked more detailed than many 1080i sets like my buddy's fujitsu.
I sit about 8' away from the screen.
-------------"I have found that if you love life, life will love you back." -Arthur Rubinstein (1887-1982)
...the picture from the 5010 is truly stunning. I just finished watching '3:10 to Yuma' on BD, and the detail and depth of the images were just extraordinary, not to mention the incredibly deep blacks (Kuro in action!). D-Nice's latest settings seem to be a winner!
BTW, are you planning to have your display ISF-calibrated? I'm really happy with how it looks already, and I can hardly imagine how it could look better, but I'm finding myself being swayed by all the success stories on AVS.
Russell
My compadres at blu-ray.com are not big on D-nice's settings and do recommend ISF calibration. So I may get that addressed sooner or later. For now, I am thrilled with the picture I'm getting. The black level is a major improvement and so is the definition. Now I need to see Ratatoille, which arrived a couple weeks ago after I sold my old plasma. Is 3:10 to Yuma worthwhile, beyond the excellent picture?
-------------"I have found that if you love life, life will love you back." -Arthur Rubinstein (1887-1982)
I really enjoyed '3:10 to Yuma'. Really terrific, internalized performances from Crowe and Bale, and the story is compelling. Gorgeous scenic shots as well. As you might know, it's a remake of an old Glenn Ford film of the same name; some reviews I've read said that the new one is even better.
I'm also really happy with the picture from my 5010; if you do end up changing D-Nice's settings yourself, let me know!
Russell
I've set the 5010 at 44, -1, +5 for contrast, brightness and color, respectively. The other settings I kept as D-Nice had them.
Do you hear a hum when your 5010 is on? I don't notice it with any audio on, but with sound off, I do hear the plasma emit a hum.
-------------"I have found that if you love life, life will love you back." -Arthur Rubinstein (1887-1982)
-------------"I have found that if you love life, life will love you back." -Arthur Rubinstein (1887-1982)
Wow--seems like your contrast and color settings are a little high. Did you try D-Nice's settings there? Did they seem too bland to you? As for the hum (buzz, really)--it's there, but very faint and only really audible when the sound's very low or off. Strangely enough, the buzz is more prominent from my seating position than up close. A LOT has been written about the Kuro buzzing on AVS--it's evidently louder for some than others.
As for the speaker, I just attached it. I've got the display on a TV stand, and the speaker fills out the unit nicely--it looks kind of ugly without it! It's quite adequate for 'normal' TV broadcasts. I've got my BD player hooked to my (2-channel) audio system, of course.
Russell
D-Nice recommends:
Contrast: 45
Brightness: -2
Color: +10
I'm at 43, -1, +3...so while I'm at very similar brightness and contrast, I backed off the color a bit. I did this after calibrating using the tool on Ratatouille, which is pretty handy.
-------------"I have found that if you love life, life will love you back." -Arthur Rubinstein (1887-1982)
His 'reference' settings are:
Contrast: 29
Brightness: 0
Color: -13
Tint: Red 2
Sharpness: -11
Those other settings are meant to be used with the break-in DVD only. (Something I haven't used.)
Russell
The reference settings are in USER mode, BTW.
PRO ADJUST:
Pure Cinema:
Film Mode: Standard (I use this for cable; I have it set to 'Advance' for Blu-ray)
Text Optimization: Off
Picture Detail:
DRE Picture: Low
Black Level: Off
ACL: Off
Enhancer Mode: 2
Gamma: 3
Color Detail:
Color Temp: Low
CTI: Off
Noise Reduction:
3DNR: Off
Field NR: Off
Power Save Mode: Off
Orbiter: Mode 2
I know D-Nice isn't the be-all, end-all with respect to these things, but I figure that he's got more experience than I have, and that these settings are a good starting point. As I've mentioned before, I think the picture looks pretty damn good with these settings!
Enjoy,
Russell
It is a more natural picture to drop off the sharpness and color. Thanks for alerting me about that.
-------------"I have found that if you love life, life will love you back." -Arthur Rubinstein (1887-1982)
Please let us know how you like the Audyssey EQ.
I plugged the microphone into the miniplug in the front panel and placed the mic on the headrest of the couch and Audyssey did the rest. It took about 15 minutes and accurately determined the speaker distance. Neat!
-------------"I have found that if you love life, life will love you back." -Arthur Rubinstein (1887-1982)
The Unhandy man (aka "moi") shouldn't be trusted with multithousand dollar TV wall mounts. Hernias aren't good for my health either. All the cable hookups I can do myself.
I'm not exactly sure where I fit in your "analyzing" but: you're welcome.
My room could benefit from a 7.1 setup but that means 7.1 HD-capable audio processor, two (2) more speakers, amp channels, and associated cabling. This would be a fairly non-trivial undertaking.
I can't believe you installed it yourself, as the thing is pretty heavy and unwieldy, especially when you take it off the stand. (But I guess your bad back is the result--sorry about that!) As for the murkiness from HD broadcasts, I'm getting none of that from my Comcast box--they look quite wonderful.
Don't know if you know this already, but D-Nice revised his settings for the 5010/6010 on 1/12/08. (He's overlaid his previous settings on AVS with the new ones.) Frankly, I can't tell much of a difference between the new ones and his previous ones (from 12/2/07), except that he now uses User mode (as opposed to Standard), which means you can now have a different Pure Cinema adjustment for each input--I use 'Standard' for the cable box and 'Advance' for BD 1080/24 playback via HDMI. (Remember that with User mode, you have to adjust the settings separately for each input--they don't apply across the board, as with Standard mode.)
Enjoy!
Russell
I was able to install it by using chairs and serving stands to raise one side at a time until I got the screen high enough to lift the bracket hooks onto the wall mount. It was very difficult and heavy, and it's a miracle the chairs and stands didn't fall over during that process. Not terribly bright to do it myself, but after more than a week of NTSC on an old CRT, I just couldn't wait. There's no way I could have installed my old plasma by myself without slicing off both my hands and dropping the unit, but the 5010 has nifty handholds on the rear panel.
I just set it up last night, so I'm sure I used D-Nice's revised settings. I backed off a little on his color recommendation, as it appeared too vibrant. I'll need to play around with it some more and may go back to his recommendation. That A/V preamp still has me concerned in terms of its impact on the picture. Some of the broadcasts look good, if they're in 1080i or 720. Below that, it looks bad--definitely worse than before.
-------------"I have found that if you love life, life will love you back." -Arthur Rubinstein (1887-1982)
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