RE: You seem unable to keep on topic. Dylan was an individualist. What does that - Jazz Inmate - Films/DVD Asylum

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RE: You seem unable to keep on topic. Dylan was an individualist. What does that

Jazz Inmate

In Reply to: You seem unable to keep on topic. Dylan was an individualist. What does that posted by tinear on February 4, 2010 at 08:46:14:

>> You began by saying Dylan kicked the anti-establishment to the curb and I pointed out how incorrect that claim was. <<

No, I began by saying the anti-establishment kicked Dylan to the curb and treated him like a criminal for picking up an electric guitar and singing what was on his mind and in his heart instead of marching to the beat of their drummers like he did early in his career.

>> Dylan's songs clearly were pro-civil rights: notice I said "songs." His songs are paeans against pretty much all facets of the "establishment." I linked, above, a song which inarguably is against the Vietnam War--- but being Dylan, it could apply to many of them. <<

Well given that the establishment embraced civil rights, you hardly need to be anti-establishment to support them. And Dylan's songs went on to be just as critical of the left as the right. Like a Rolling Stone can be interpreted as an admonishment of Joan Baez and other lefties.

>> Seeger's disenchantment, and you make it seem Seeger was threatening Dylan with the axe when he was seeking to sever the electric cord to the state--- was an individual reaction and hardly one by any movement. <<

That's exactly wrong--and makes me wonder whether you even watched No Direction Home. Throngs of Dylan's fans turned on him, not just his companions like Pete Seeger and Joan Baez. Hippie kids in his audiences screamed out insults at his shows, calling him "Judas". This was not just Seeger's reaction--it was clearly the anti-establishment's reaction at large. And for a supposed pacifist like Seeger to even joke about picking up an axe--that is a real eye opener. That speaks volumes. He didn't seem to be joking. He was totally serious. And while he may have made the target of his rage the cords that gave volume to Dylan's music, let's analyze that, shall we? He didn't like Dylan's new image, music or lyrics. His "joke" shows that he wanted them censored. Censorship is exactly what Seeger faced from the establishment during his career, e.g., on the Smothers Brothers comedy hour. If anyone understood censorship or should have been sensitive to it, one would think it's Seeger. Yet as soon as his "protege" broke with the anti-establishment message, it was Seeger who seemed to advocate censorship.

>> The displeasure which manifested over Dylan, including during his English tour, had NOTHING to do with any movement of Dylan's away from anti-establishment politics but everything to do with moving away from NON-amplified music. <<

That's not true. The messages in Dylan's songs increasingly strayed from anti-establishment to include messaging critical of that very movement and to point out its hypocrisies. I mean, the Dylan of 1962 who wrote Masters of War is not the Dylan of 1965 who wrote Like a Rolling Stone. And that's what upset his left-leaning fans. But the Dylan of 1965 had more experience. He had gone to anti-war rallies with Joan Baez. He had turned around and seen the frowns on the jugglers and the clowns after they all did their tricks. He knew what the left was about and he wanted no part of it anymore, and for that he was attacked and criticized. I can relate.

>> You continue to attempt to frame Dylan as some sort of apolitical personage to fit YOUR conservative political views. Get over it, Bob wasn't a Nixon Republican. <<

Maybe not, but he did become a born-again Christian a couple years after Nixon left office. You're not a terribly nuanced observer of politics or pop culture.

I once had very left leaning views. But like Dylan, I grew up. If you are unable, so be it.

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Follow Ups Full Thread

Topic - Scorsese's, "No Direction Home:" a must-see documentary though - tinear 21:08:18 02/02/10 (15)

RE: Scorsese's, "No Direction Home:" a must-see documentary though - patrickU 07:33:51 02/03/10 (0)

Did I click on the 2005 link by accident? - Jazz Inmate 22:20:47 02/02/10 (13)

Here's a 1985 Bob nugget: - tinear 08:06:01 02/03/10 (0)

Of course you continue to project YOUR disenchantment with - tinear 08:01:19 02/03/10 (10)

Not projecting. Commenting on Pete Seeger's interview in NDH nt - Jazz Inmate 11:01:51 02/03/10 (8)

Seeger was seething at Dylan's going electric, complaining about the noise and the fact - tinear 11:50:27 02/03/10 (7)

Re: Seeger was seething at Dylan's going electric, complaining about the noise and the fact - Jazz Inmate 13:26:24 02/03/10 (6)

So Dylan is establishment? Oh, man........................ nt - tinear 19:56:15 02/03/10 (5)

No, Dylan was an individualist. Seeger & co were anti-establishment - Jazz Inmate 22:24:43 02/03/10 (4)

You seem unable to keep on topic. Dylan was an individualist. What does that - tinear 08:46:14 02/04/10 (2)

RE: You seem unable to keep on topic. Dylan was an individualist. What does that - Jazz Inmate 09:40:31 02/04/10 (1)

Your last sentence says it all. In other words, my characterization of you - tinear 11:58:41 02/04/10 (0)

RE: You are absolutely right. He is a poet with a social conscience. And that was it. nt - patrickU 03:39:22 02/04/10 (0)

Speaking of which... Bob at the White House! - musetap 10:59:06 02/03/10 (0)

Yeah, I think this was released a few years ago. - PdL 04:54:07 02/03/10 (0)

Follow Ups

RE: You seem unable to keep on topic. Dylan was an individualist. What does that - Jazz Inmate 09:40:31 02/04/10 (1)

Your last sentence says it all. In other words, my characterization of you - tinear 11:58:41 02/04/10 (0)

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