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In Reply to: Actually... posted by NapTime on May 18, 2003 at 17:11:27:
I was distracted (or in the Gent's).If you are speaking of the speech delivered be "Agent Smith" to the drugged and bound Morpheus in the original film there is no mention of "Free Will", only that the first Matrix was a Utopia which humans rejected because we define ourselves by our suffering ("whole crops were lost"). They simply programmed in a bit of misery. And that is Cosmos. Knox and Schopenaur rampant! I just played the excerpt from the DVD to be sure.
If that is what you were referring to, you are mistaken. Though, I wish not. I can deal with Descartes more patiently than Schopenhaur!
If there is a quote in the 2nd movie that I missed, just tell me where it is. When I buy the DVD I will check it out. I certainly don't intend to suffer through the ill mannered audiences in a NYC theatre again (well, maybe a mid-week matinee).
Follow Ups:
:-)
They are not the same as choice can be limited and therefore subject to rules (as the architect implied . . . what do you think programming is?) . True "Free will" cannot be.I had been present during that scene when I first saw it but you got me wondering whether or not I mis-heard, so I just saw the film again (rug-rats, obnoxious 20 somethings and all, but it was a gloomy Friday). I did not mis-hear.
I am less damning of the "adolescent philosophising" than I was. Though far from original or profound, it is probably the only way 3/4ths of the audience is ever exposed to the ideas. No wonder they are moved to paroxysms of admiration.
I agree. The architect did not specifically mention free will, but stated that the Matrix depends upon choice, conscious or unconscious, to accept or reject the construct. This choice appears to be real and necessary for system meta-stability. Clearly, the architect has come to accept an oscillating system of growth and destruction in the "real" word in order to maintain stability in the Matrix.There is a persisting mystery regarding Zion and its relationship with free will...
I can only guess that Zion is necessary as the only way an individual can opt out of the Matrix and survive in the real world. An interesting twist is if Zion itself is "real" or just another "level" of the construct. Does the existence of free will depend on a true "out" or is it just a choice between two options of simulated life. How is it that the enslaved humans can instinctively distinguish these possibilities? If Zion is "simulated", then why does it need to exist at all, as choices can be made within the Matrix?
If Zion is "real", how is it that Neo is able to stop the "Squiddies"? He notes, just before this event, that he can now "feel" them, and apparently has the sudden insight that his powers may be functional outside of the Matrix (if he's really outside the Matrix).
It will be interesting to see how this question is resolved.
My guess is just like he is able to decipher code and fight the agents on their own terms, he has learned how to harness his electrical energy and use it as a weapon. Perhaps through a higher level of consciousness he has deciphered the way his body works on the cellular level. Maybe hacked his own programming?
Or maybe Neo was hacked by Persephone. She applied lipstick before the kiss, the music became a little more dramatic during the kiss.
i want to disagree again. i don't see it by any means as adolescent philosophising.it's as good art-philosophy as anything else.
i noticed on the board here though that there is not a full appreciation of philosphising. i think there is a staid view of philosophy. i don't quite understand the attitude but i'm not familar with the lack of feeling of vitality towards ideas.
you are probably not a fan either of rubert sheldrake. he's the man.
actually i'd have to think if they have incorporated any of his ideas into the matrix movies. it seems it could be so.
they are made for each other, it would seem.
It does not matter if a choice is limited to a specific set of alternatives (in the case of the doors, there are two). As long as the actual choice made remains unpredictible, it constitutes an act of free will.The reason the Matrix is going to fail for the 7th time, according to the Architect, is that the choice Neo always makes IS predictable, representing a flaw in the design (i.e. no real choice is made). Of course, there are arguments out there that omniscience and choice (or free will) can coexist, but whether the Brothers take this into consideration remains to be seen in the final movie.
though now that I think about it, there is the slight possibility that he was lying, but it would take a very bizaare twist in the plot to explain those doors.
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