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Lest it be lost down below.He states in his typical half-baked manner:
"The issue is I have yet to see you or Victor list 10 hollywood films you would consider GREAT films since 1990 that made significant dollars.
If you can't produce 10 then I have no need to discuss film with either of you on this forum any longer because you don't know good films."
That of course is not the issue at all, but anyway, let's have fun.
However, since as I mentioned, I never divide films into Hollywood, American, French, Dutch, Mongolian, etc, but only into Great - Good - OK - bad - kaka, I would ask you to give me the list of the Hollywood films since 1990, from which I could pick my nominations.
But one important point - I really don't give a kaka whether you continue discussing movies with me or not, so please don't presume I will try hard to score that magic 10 number... all I can promise is I will state honestly which films I consider above average - say, Good and Great grades.
So, shoot.
Follow Ups:
With HW producing over 1000 movies a year I sure did not see all of them, but I will have REAL hard time coming out with a list of 10 GREAT films. OK - yes, good - probably, great - I doubt it.
There is almost no market for great movies in modern America, and I am very sorry to see this. I really hope this would change but I don't see any progress in the right direction.
You are saying as well that you cannot find 10 great movies since 1990. There is not 1000 movies made each year out of Hollywood each year. Not even close.How bout we skip your opinion and individual opinion - can you list 10 movies that the Majority of film critic bodies - the people in the business to KNOW art have decided are Great films. I don't mean the Academy awards because those are voted on by academy memebers who are merely actors, directors etc.
However the National Film Board, Los Angeles Chicago and nY Film critics societies are far more credible - well at least they should be for the art house crowd - because for a start they have seen all the foreign films as well and all the indie films so if they choose a Hollywood film they chose it over the best from France, Germany, Russia, Mexico, Japan etc
Basically now I know why Ebert is king of the movie rating hill.
Are you sure those you mention are qualified to tell us which movies are great and which are not worth our time? Says who? They themselves? Or maybe movie studios? Or TV anchors?
This is where the main problem is - there is no real authority in art, and movies are art indeed.
Besides, even with things that some can agree with, there are no constant issues. Is Spielberg talented director? But of course. Would I consider "Shindler's List" and "Saving Private Ryan" movies of equal quality? Not in a lifetime.
The problem for me to name 10 great movies is with my understanding of the word "great".
If Tom Cruse is great - sure, I'll name a 100 easily. If Yves Montand is - then I have difficulties.
I like to go back to Jaws and also of rating genres. Tom Cruise is a STAR not an actor. As STARS go he is a good actor. Being a Star has an instant problem because you can't escape your image. Schindler's Worked because it had a bunch of nobodies as household names but high quality stage actors in Fiennes and Kingsley who both largely dissapear into their work. I also find it interesting that when Fiennes attempted Maid in Manhatten he bombed because playing a nothing character for a character actor he found impossible to do it right...and he didn't. Which was why he commented that what Cary Grant did was not as easy as people think. Being light and credible in a romantic comedy is extremely difficult to do and Ralph, being one of the best stage actors of the last 30 years is credible discussing acting.I talk about genre because horror is considered a step below everything else and basically a step above porn. Nevertheless we can find great horror movies...that doesn't mean the BEST in the horror genre will be viewed the best overall film of all time or even crack your top 100. This is why I discuss Jaws. There is a reason MOST people consider this to be a masterpiece as I have stated numerous times already. Of course certain people won't like it.
The point you made is correct that just because a large body calls it a masterpiece doesn't make it great...but a small body calling something great carries even LESS weight.
I hated 81/2 Victor hates Jaws. Both films have HUGE followings in critical circles and the latter also happens to do well amongst the masses. Jaws is as good as that story can be told IMO.
Then you look at Ebert and he has BOTH films in the great 100. Here is my point. BOTH films are considered masterpieces. Not everyone will agree on each selection.
For a masterpiece in literature such as the works of Shakespeare or Dickens it has to remain worthy in following generations. Both are still stables in the literary world 300 years later. The MASSES still read them they influence today's movies. Chaucer only manages to stay alive because of the Lit historians.
This transfers over to film...Jaws has succeeded in standing time by both art critics and the masses. And whether we "Like" the film or not the bottom line is it has met the objective criteria for a what a masterpiece is. I say objective criteria because artsy fartsy people like to try and make art objective and then turn around and dismiss their own rules because they dislike a particular film from being there.
Spileberg I compare to Shakespeare in many ways. The artsy fartsy critics of high class washed their hands of the inept Shakespeare. Same with Mozart. Salieri was the MAIN composer - Mozart was considered a hack. The people spoke and now Mozart is considered a genius. That movement will eventually occur for Spielberg...the people and most critics have figured it out already.
Saving Private Ryan is not nearly as good as Schindler's List - but it's also a helluva lot better than some people gave it credit for. I was one of the people who did not like SPR when it cam out...I have seen it twice since then and the so called story after the opening beach sequance is quite smart from a hoistorical perspective ... too smart for a first time through though because the opening sequence is so strong that nothing after could live up to that...on second and thirdviews in fact the following is much better. There is commentary on the ridiculous American Propaganda, an internal story of fear in war and what it truly means to be a MAN, conscienceness in war, what a hero really is.
It's not perfect but much smarter and even-handed than it seemed when I first saw it.
Fienes did not "bomb" in "Maid in Manhattan". I thought both leads did very well and I was quite prepared to HATE that film.
I didn't think he necessarily bombed, but more that he didn't really know what to do with it. The movie was beneath him. I didn't hate the movie. It is another re-telling of Cinderella or a politically correct version of Pretty Woman. As romantic comedies go it was fair.
In no particular order:
Schindler's List
Saving Private Ryan
The Sixth Sense (oh, c'mon: if you're going to worship every piece of shit Hitchcock did [some, obviously, WAS great], don't you think this would be amongst HIS very best?)
Se7en
The Usual Suspects
Happiness
Jackie Brown
Pulp Fiction
Fargo
American Beauty
The Big Lebowski
The Silence of the Lambs.
I said "Great" and I mean it. All of these films will continue to be popular for generations. There were others, but these just sprang up, for now.
Most of that list is complete garbage.
s
SEVEN was morbid and I left it off my list, but as Aristotle (or one of those old geezers stated) if you're going to show violence in ART, make sure that it repulses the viewer, to disuade them from ever partaking in that kind of behavior and SEVEN did it for me.Chris
I can't make a list. I'm not really into movies anymore, and I usually can't remember a movie unless someone reminds me -- for instance, when someone mentiones Peter Greenaway or David Cronenberg or Starship Troopers or Saving Private Ryan. The last one has really gotten me into trouble. I've learned the hard way not to point out that Saving Private Ryan glorifies war, because doing so will offend people on a very personal level. If there's anyone like that reading this message, I apologize in advance.I didn't read this forum until recently, so I'm not sure I understand the point of this exercise. Is someone trying to categorically debunk American filmmaking in the 1990s? If so, I would hope everyone realizes that's a ridiculous non-starter.
s
Because then they would have to open themselves up to pot shots.You see they know that most people haven't seen their artsy fartsy fluff about mind numbingly boring oversimplified stupidity like 81/2 so they can feel free to post. There are about 600 American films better than that dreadful waste of film reel. The new Dawn of the Dead for a start.
Now I called for American film because I know more people have seen them - so they would probably post some piece of junk like Crash as being one of the best or Eyes Wide Shut another dreadful POS.
I really meant what I said. I have a hard time remembering the films I like. I couldn't care less about pot shots.This morning I did remember an excellent 1990s high-budget Hollywood blockbuster-type film -- The Thin Red Line . I don't think anybody has mentioned it, but it's the best 1990s high-budget Hollywood blockbuster-type film I know by a longshot. It's also easy fodder for pot-shots, so shoot away and see if I care.
s
Run a search on my name, you will probably find me cover 200+ films per year (maybe more)... so there's you list.Tell ya what - take any one of them, and do your pot shots.
I asked for ten - they don't have to be the best ten you've seen just ten.If someone asks me to list any ten films in my top 100 I could do that off the cuff.
Not that any of it really matters -it's not really about the films it's about your lack of argument for condemning films and attacking people for liking what you don't. Instead of spending time on this forum I highly recommend you go to rottentomatoes.com and sign up for their forums. You want to argue - you'll get more there...and you'll even find lots of people who like 81/2. This place gets 1/100 the traffic they do.
***If someone asks me to list any ten films in my top 100 I could do that off the cuff.I too could do that when I was 20. Today I know whole lot more, and things are much more complicated.
Off the cuff, you say? Sure sounds that way.
Which one of the Fellini's 25 films would I include in my list of 100?
You so far know only one, so that does make it easy.
With luck you too will develop in the future and will know more, and with more knowledge will come understanding that often things should not be done "off the cuff".
Today, after watching all the films that I have, my biggest frustration is that I will never be able to even scratch the surface of what's good out there.
So enjoy your simple life while you can.
You do not know film because you've seen more, you do not know good literature because you've read more. Quality in the analysis over quantity of watching. Attempting to fish for my age I find odd. Unless you think maturity and age are correlational...I doubt you're this stupid though so I'm assuming you're just curious.How bout we go to Roger Ebert(he's in his 60s). A Pulitzer Prize writer, a man who a has seen more than you no doubt. He has seen probably 30+ movies for every one that I have seen. He has probably seen 30,000+ films.
The difference is most movies critics see I don't need to see. I don't need to see this week's cop buddy movie...I scroll through what critics say are the best ones and I try and make time to watch them. But after 10 years in accounting I left to go back to school and don't have time to see as many anymore.
Now if you actually thought about it I have probably 20-40 films in my top 100 that EBERT has in his top 100. Even though he has seen way more movies. He has weeded out the rubbish. I don't deny most are crap...but many are very good.
You look at his list from "The" film art critic. There is a reason he voices the alternate tracks on some major films like Kane among others.
I think you simply needed something to complain about, as otherwise you didn't have much leg to stand on.Let me make it brief - I am swamped with work today. It had everything to do with maturity.
When someone who only has seen one film by Fellini starts making broad sweeping statements about that master, I say there is need for some maturity.
Whether at 15, 35, or 65.
Lord of the Rings and makes broad sweeping statements about its quality there is a need for some maturity.
I commented onhis direction of one film - his most acclaimed film...If that is his best then I don't know if I'm masochistic enough to want to watch 24 other *1/2/***** movies. For that I can watch Friday the 13th remakes.
Maybe I will take time and compile such a list. Not because some have been asking about it, but because I am curious myself.It might take some time however, so in the meantime - do a search.
..."mind numbingly boring oversimplified stupidity like 81/2" is pretty close to my position.clark
...just Pulp Fiction, and even that marginally.I am growing more and more pessimistic regarding that list of 10.
s
Don't worry Pulp Fiction is vastly superior to 81/2.Most critics consider Pulp to be one of the greats...Victor doesn't and that is fine...he's outnumbered. Nananananana!
...so they would not clog our quiet place with their nose-in-the-air attitude discussions.One more post like this and I will throw a tantrum.
This was not hard. List 10 films out of America produced with Hollywood budgets. So there is a modifcation...how be we open it up to American directors who personally get things financed and don't go through Hollywood such as Spielberg, Redford and that ilk.I'm not going to list a pile of movies...if you can't think of ten great ones then you mst not feel there are ten.
Casino was a solid entertaining film...a poor man's Goodfellas though.
Certainly I don't expect that we will agree on every movie buit you seem to thionk everyone who doesn't agree with you has kaka for brains. Sorry mate but lots of films listed in this thread already that are considered GREAT out of the US I disagree with.
Magnolia has a screenplay that fails a resolution - they use an old style "Act of God" ending to resoiolve it. Anyone in the theater knows that these ending s are the worst sort which is why Magnolia fails for me.
Fargo is solid not great. Time has not been good to Fargo either - basically it's forgettable.
I didn't love Heat either - it's good entertainment but certainly not a great movie IMO.
You wrote:how be we open it up to American directors who personally get things financed and don't go through Hollywood
Does that include Jim Jarmusch and John Sayles? Then here are the best ones...
- Dead Man
- Ghost Dog
- City of Hope
- Passion Fish
- Lone Star
- Men With Guns
- Limbo
Hey, I'm already up to 7 films with just 2 directors. Can I add David Lynch? Then throw in...
- Twin Peaks: Fire Walk With Me
- Lost Highway
- The Straight Story
There you go, 10 excellent films from 3 American directors in the 1990s.
Perhaps the contest should have been to come up with 10 great American directors of the 1990s?
I have not seen a lot of films over the last 5 years I mainly try and see the critically praised movies and the odd fun film like the Dawn of the Dead remake yesterday. I have recorded over 1000 films in my database which one day I will get around to writing reviews for. of those 1000 there is 17 films I have as a 5 star out of 5 effort. And several of those are very borderline.I count a great film as a 4 star effort. So it may very well be a difference in grading criteria.
If you look at someone like Leonard maltin and Roger Ebert you'll see a LOT more 4 star films from Ebert - he gives em out like candy. Maltin does not...he's a lot tougher and rarely gives 4 stars.
I don't think there has been an unquesionably great American film made since 1979's APOCALYPSE NOW. There have been several very good films since 1990, however. I'd include Micahel Mann's HEAT and THE INSIDER. Clint Eatwood's UNFORGIVEN (over-rated, I feel). I think Thomas Paul Anderson verges on greatness at times. I liked both BOOGIE NIGHTS and MAGNOLIA. Actually, I've come not to expect much from movies any more. They have gotten to be so expensive that artists are not free to take chances. To get anything past a producer these days must take more of a thick skin than can be good for any artist. I have to say that there have been many films that I've simply enjoyed and watch repeatedly on DVD. These are usually epics with big scores like Kasdan's WYATT EARP, GLADIATOR, of course, even, with your permission, LOTR. There are many others.
I didn't personally care for Apocalypse Now. **1/2 / ****The best Coppola film by a mile is The Conversation IMO. The Godfather was a good 3 hour mob soap Opera...Luckily Scorcese learnt a thing or two about pacing and made a more power raw film in Goodfellas.
To say the Conversation is his best movie ever is easy (hardly a disagreement here), but that ignores the fact that it is - if taken all by itself - a good movie, but not a great one.Well, maybe the original Godfather was better.
Why do you need someone else to list Hollywood movies for you to pick from?Pick them yourself! That's part of the challenge.
I think I explained already why... read my post.Ditto for French, German, Russian films. Ask me about just good films if you want.
LA Confidential...Nice period piece w/interesting characters.The Usual Suspects...Great plot twist, awesome 'who dunit'.
Casino...Interesting looking into Las Vegas from a different perspective.
LOTR Triology..."A billion Chinese can't all be wrong"
Starship Troopers...Great special effects, interesting story and the killing of lots of mean looking insectoids.
The Fifth Element...If you couldn't enjoy this one, well, then as they say, you're probably brain dead.
We Were Soldiers...Great action in a tear jerker of sorts.
Last Samurai...Epic, awesome choreography, sad ending.
Bad Boys II...Who said sequels suck? Anybody seen ALIENS?
Booty Call...A black comedy that even white people will find funny, need I say more?
Austin Powers...This is American cinema at its finest moment.
Wild Things...great who dunit with hot chicks making out with each other, wow, save on Porn rentals with this one.
2 Days In The Valley...odd ball look at hit men with a great ensemble cast.
Traffic...great ensemble cast too and an interesting looking into the Drug/High Society life of the 90s.
U Turn...this is one fucked up film, beware
Armageddon...Come on, the special effects good, if not slightly unbelieveable, but geeze? I cried at the end.
Bound...what's there not to like about his 'backstabbing' film? Gina and Meg are even hotter when they're making out with each other. A Bonus!
Face Off...Good action, mean characters.
Con Air...rip roaring entertainment and a great ensemble cast.
Dusk Til Dawn...Wow! Two snaps for me. Salma doing the dirty dance was worth the price of admission alone.
Assassins...low budget but actually an interesting story of two hitmen vying to be number one in the world of killing. See FULLTIME KILLER for an awesome Hong Kong variation on this theme.
Tomb Raider I...what's not to like? Great action, great story, great body. You're gay if you didn't like this one.
Conspiracy Theory...Mel and Julia were good together in this one.
Blackhawk Down...If you didn't feel a tinge after this one, call a nurse.
Enemy At The Gates...Die you sticking Nazis, die.
Small Soldiers...great animation from the second team of SGK Dreamworks and a great story.
Falling Down...Weird to see Michael Douglas as a weird guy gone off the edge...
Behind Enemy Lines...a low budget cat/mouse game set in modern day Bosnia/Serbia/Croatia area. Crank the subwoofers up for the missile/jet scene and that's worth the rental price right there.
Crimson Tide...Nail biter with two great actors. All navy men/women should love this one.
Nurse Betty...great team of Morgan Freeman and Chris Rock as zany hitmen after a fantasy living soap opera fan.
The Replacement Killers...great chemistry between Academy Award winner Mira Sorvino and Chow Yun-Fat. Great action too.
Heat...Slick interesting cat/mouse game. Interesting interplay between archrivals.
Ronin...See above, great twists, great car chases, stoic.
Rounders...Like Casino, an interesting look at the minor leagues of poker playing and ripping people off.
The Thomas Crown Affair...I know it's a remake, but damn if they don't make a sexy couple. Rene looked hot in that blue dress too.
Fargo...Interesting characters and nice plot twists.
Grosse Point Blank...A funny comedy about two hitmen after each other's gigs. Dan Aykroyd is funny in this one.
Well, just a few from my DVD collection, lest you think that I don't put my money where my mouth is.
Chris
You mentioned Starship Troopers by Paul Verhoeven. That movie had a $95M budget.The soon-to-be-released Starship Troopers 2: Hero of the Federation had about a $3M budget, was filmed in just over a month, and yet is far more entertaining than Verhoeven's big-budget effort. It was directed by Phil Tippett, who worked on special effects for the original; for his own film he went for a Roger Corman kind of filmmaking (in his words). Roger Corman had a genius for filmmaking, and this movie is a fitting tribute.
Everyone knows that it doesn't take a lot of money to make a good movie, but Starship Troopers 2 is the only recent example I know of that pulls off a good low-budget well crafted special-effects/action/sci-fi romp. Check it out when it's released.
nt
I didn't find any I would consider great, but a few good ones.The Usual Suspects
Casino (but only borderline)
Heat? Well, maybe, together with Ronin, but we are already lowering our scale... be warned.
Fargo
Sorry, that is about it. But since you mentioned the Enemy at the Gate, I would love to introduce one of my all-time favorite American comedies - the Barbarians at the Gate.
It is incredibly witty, and I cherish the tape.
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