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My feelings on Westerns in general are one big YAWN... usually I would much rather read some trashy Russian detective story. With several channels devoted to the Westerns, I never make stops there.Even the better ones are not something I would sit and watch. A disclamer - I do not include Eastwood films in that category. Those I can watch.
I know the Stagecoach is considered one of the best, so last night I had a chance to refresh my memory.
The result... I still don't like the formula. Yes, I could see some good directing in this one, and there was a semblance of a story, plus some reasonable acting, but again, overall, I would have turned it off if not for the "task" of seeing it in its entirety.
Is it one of the better ones? Without any doubts. But the question still remains - were there any Westerns that would raise to the level of true excellence, as far as the art of movie making is concerned? I can't think of one.
Who knows... perhaps the best Western ever was indeed the Czech parody - the Lemonade Joe... I mean - the typical Western plot twists - are they not something that should really be treated as a joke?
Follow Ups:
Maybe I am alone but I really liked this movie. The photography was superb. Neil Young's soundtrack was powerful as hell, too. And this sad, gruesome chronicle of a film can also be a lot of fun, especially if you like poking fun at American society (as I suspect that you do...). A little heavy on the overt symbolism, but still quite fun. We have the dispossesed Easterner "trying to get away". The gradual journey into the wilderness on board the "train of death", with the destination being the town of "Machine". The symbolic killing of Old Father/Mother Europe (Bounty Hunter Lance Henriksen "fucked his mother and father", and then ate them), in America, and the subsequent working out of homelessness pervades the film. Johnny Depp is the walking "dead man" (The American) who is lucky enough to befriend a man who realizes this and who is more than happy to assist him in a proper burial (The Indian). And much, much more... Good film!
Was it the original black and white 1939 version of "Stagecoach" you saw? Directed by John Ford with John Wayne as the star? The film has been remade at least twice....both times badly. Orson Welles said he ran it 40 times to learn how to direct a film. I don't really believe he did that but it is a sweet quote anyway.I agree with Mishmashmusic and the others that you should see Peckinpah's "The Wild Bunch." I also think "Ride the High Country" is a beautiful film. Robert Altman also did an almost anti-Western with a great deal to say about our times, "McCabe and Mrs. Miller." The last 30 or so minutes are just brilliant.
The traditional Western with the hero killing the villian at the end and riding off has never been all that interesting to me (my one big exception to this is "Shane"). Much more interesting were the TV series like the first season of "The Rifleman" (parts of which are available on video), created by Peckinpah, and "Wanted Dead or Alive" with Steve McQueen.
Oh, don't forget "The Searchers" (1956) with John Wayne as a racist looking for a friend's daughter who has been kidnapped by Indians. Jean-Luc Godard said that politically he despised Wayne, but the climax of the film left him in tears. Not the best Western, but interesting as a statement of Uhmeriken masculinity. Scorcese also uses it as a source.
Perhaps one day, Victor, you will understand why the townspeople in "Blazing Saddles" say the name of Randolph Scott with such reverance!
Welles is reputed to have said (paraphrase) "We study the old masters, John Ford, John Ford, and John Ford".
And I like "Bronco Billy" too. Regards,J.R.
Victor,Westerns in the US almost always annoy me as the most common form was always a simple-minded good and evil scenario. These contrived conflicts- water rights, insurgent Indians, cattle theft, evil railroad profiteers, and general was solved by confrontation of two people who stand in the middle of some mud hole street and shoot at each other like idiots.
The problem is the American mythology about the West became a kind of backdrop of chaos that is overcome by violence by the severly self-righteous, motivated individual. I had one of my 10 most mouth-dropping movie experiences when John Wayne in "Red River" kills two members of his cattle driving team because they were going to quit their jobs! "I don't like quitters!" was the explanation.
Personally too, I came to really hate the decades of depictions of the killing of native Americans only becuase they didn't have documentation or ences on their land and were reluctant to give up their country.
This principle of solving of every problem by violence is so ingrained in American culture that I don't think most Americans realize how fundamental a principle it has become. Certainly, the Western did much to keep this idea in front of the public.
But, Western genre movies also went quite far in perpetuating positive attributes of American rugged individualism and independence, freedom for people to pursue a new life in a new land, responsibility for personal choices, creating self-respect through hard work and personal integrity, and the (gradual) respect for rule of law.
In the positive vein, I like very much two Stewart movies, one more of a comedy the other dramatic. The demi-comedy is "Destry Rides Again" with the unlikely pairing Stewart and Marlene Dietrich. Stewart is the son of a famous shootumup sherrif who decides to substitute law for guns. "My pa did it the old way, an I'm gonna do it a new way." Second is "The Man who shot Liberty Valance" Stewart is an attorney moving out west and on the way is robbed and assaulted by Lee Marvin as Liberty Valance- interesting choice of names) and John Wayne recognizes Stewarts integrity and backs him. The plot is much more subtle than most Westerns and Wayne is about as good as I've ever seen him as he realizes hid era is past and Stewart is getting the girl. Wayne has a black cohort and even their relationship is interesting. I like these two as both are related to the idea of justice out of chaos.
Other Westerns I think are worthwhile:
"Little Big Man"- really an amazing movie that drops in on both sides of the Cowboy and Indian story without sentimentality - it does reveal the complexity of US expansion. This is also an early example of a movie in which the Indians are not anonymous savages out killing whites, but people with an evolved, elaborate culture and spiritual base.
"My Darling Clemetine"- Henry Fonda as Wyatt Earp meets up with Doc Holliday (Victor Mature) and they take revenge on the killing of Earps younger bother by the Clantons (Walter Brennan's best role)at the O.K. Corral. Plenty of shooting and violence, very atmospheric and palpable, and very, very nicely photographed. There is just some nice, natural acting and dialoge in this one too.
"The Ox-Bow Incident": - Fonda is part of a posse that captures alleged cattle rustlers, but in the wilds, chaos reigns and the three captured are to be hanged without trial. Fonda has serious qulams about this rough justice. Also very atmosheric and Fonda's inner turmoil, the self-perpetuating violence of the mob and the angst of the accused are well deliniated.
"Unforgiven"- this was a much more sublte movie than I first thought. it has the most realistic violence I had seen in movies (the beating of "English Bob") and Hackman is more of a 3D character than in many Westerns. The introductionof the journalist isinsteresting too as it shows the early days of Wild West myth making. And Eastwood as reluctant hero is quite well wrought.
Western I really hate: "Dances With Wolves"- a skewed hindsight white guilt ego vehicle for Kevin Kostner with the Great plains as an insignificant background. There is not two seconds in that film without Kostner's shapeless head 11" feet high.
A "near Western" I like: "Bad Day at Black Rock" - Spencer Tracy is a one-armed veteran who travels into the Wild West to see a Japanese comrade's father to give him his son's WWII medal. when Tracy starts poking around to find out why the father is dead, Robert Ryan and his henchmen (including Borgnine) give him plenty of trouble. Well-don and suspenful. Walter Brennan is very good as a cynical undertaker!
I started out by saying how I dislike Westerns, but there are definitely some worthwhile ones- when the familiar formulae are broken.
Cheers,
Bam
Unrelated:
PS: Say Victor, by the time I responded to the watch thread on Outside it was already archived. Tried out a beautiful Lange yesterday but too large a watch (48mm) and too large a price (about a new Toyota Camry)! Saw some nice Maurice LaCroix and IWC.
In the context of the American Western, I have come to doubt that problem solving is the primary reason for violence. It is more of an excuse than a reason. There are always problems to be solved for sure, and without those "problems" where would the storyline be?. More important than getting the problem solved "once and for all" is the effect that the rise to violence has. It's the journey, not the destination, that counts! In the USA, perhaps it's a journey that we need to experience on a cyclical basis, for a number of reasons. That's why "Westerns" endured for so long - without boring the intended audience.
"s skewed hindsight white guilt ego vehicle...." - AH.
Hi Bam,Thank you for good comments on movies - some of them I have seen. My biggest problem with Westerns as the genre is with the mandatory idea of a super hero - the mere presence of one kills the suspence, even in the better ones. Add to this the kind of shooting people do in them and you have a perfect receipt for an early pre-Bond boring cliche. While every little boy in all of us cries for that super hero, it makes the whole experience artificial, even the better ones, even the "anti-hero" ones, even the Gary Cooper's High Noon.
I recently read a detective story where things were going well, and I read with interest... until the hero suddenly killed five opponents with just a few strokes of his skillful hands. There it lost it for me.
On watches... are you sure that Lange was 48mm? I never heard of one, the largest I know they make is 42mm. I know it is big for some people, but still that is not a huge watch. Expensive, without any doubt.
Victor,Yes, you've hit the essential point of Westerns' predictability. And even when the pattern is broken there is still the obvious "anti-pattern" that is just as predictable.
I did very much enjoy "Butch Cassidy and the SDK" from the standpoint of breaking the mould, but it was another "anti-pattern" movie that was predictable, but the personalities given to the anti-heroes made it fun.
"...the hero suddenly killed five opponents with just a few strokes".
Gosh, didn't this same kind of artificial super-hero effect- along with an edit every 1/8th second, make the second Matrix movie a cinema burner?
Watches: I couldn't stay away ffrom the corner drug store and took my attorney friend in to have a look. I again didn't buy anything, but my friend- who was there to keep me from a silly impulse purchase, bought a nice, slightly used Franck Muller Conquistador after about 5 minutes! He had never heard of Muller before, but just had to have it. I don't know how someone can be so instantly decisive about a watch. My problem is that I like so many- too many. Do you find that you spend a lot of time in deciding or are these purchases: easy, calm, and quick?
You're right about the Lange size- I mistyped 48mm for the correct 38mm for the Lange 1. The third time I tried it, it seemed a reasnable size. I keep thinking I have such small wrists for these big watches, but with good designs and not too, too thick they look fine. The shop had some fun stuff, a really huge, thick Alain Silberstein- so goofy I really liked it as it is so different from the very sober Langes and the very traditional Breguets and Pateks. I don't see a lot of horological quality in Silbersteins, but they are unforgettable looking. Another unforgettable at the shop- a Vacheron tourbillon with a half-hunter back. This is an amazing kind of X-rated! under the counter watch. Opening the back there is a little shadow diarama of two people well- there was a little action scene of these two people one behind the other, "rocking" back and forth! A watch you can't take home to mother! My friend and I couldn't stop laughing.
I have really come around to German watches and now I'm looking more at Glasshutte.
RE: "Musical Fidelity watches"- that those on General are giving such a hard "time" to Sam Tellig for. What would a BAT watch would be like? Have you ever thought of watch designs?
I've worked off and on on watch designs for years, recently a "mystery watch" with the dials on floating concentric disks and another unconventional jumping hour. Fun to fiddle with and a wonderful irresponsible use of time.
Cheers,
Bam
...My Darling Clementine and Bad Day at Black Rock.Sorta liked Unforgiven but thought the Hackman character and the pulp writer a little too cartoonish.
I really really really hated Dances with Wolves. What a piece of self-indulgent crap.
But hey, that's just me.
Regarding "Little Big Man", I have posted before regarding the woefully undershot Little Big Horn sequence toward the end, something even skillful editing cannot hide. The entire battle is a confused mess, totally out of sync with the rest of the film.Still one of my favorites, however.
rico,Yes, good point about the light-weight of the big battle scene, though the focus on Custer's arrogance breaking up into child-like confusion when he was standing almost alone among a pile of bodies was a seductive bit of artifice.
"So, mule skinner, are there any Indians down there?"
"There are thousands of Indians down there."
"I can see your little game mule skinner. I don't think there's a single Indian down there."
"You go down there!"Cheers,
Bambi B
Martin Balsam is great in this, his character being whittled away a bit further each time you see him. I've read the novel twice and the movie, while necessarily leaving out some events, is very true to the spirit of the book.A Custer guarantee.
The true grit.
All worth at least one viewing...
...those two John Ford movies are my favorite westerns.The previously mentioned The Big Country is not a great film, but it's very entertaining, beautifully shot and has one of the best musical scores of any western.
I liked that much better than "Stagecoach" or "Butch Cassidy...
I liked "The Shootist" more due the paralells in Waynes real life vs the story vs acting in it."Will Penny " and "The Cowboys" are 2 more I fondly remember.
I'd say that escapes the formula. Great cinematography, solid performances, solid writing...I'd be surprised if you didn't like it.I'm no Western fan, either. This is my dad's favorite movie, and he introduced me to it as a kid.
One caveat: the DVD is supposed to be not as good as it needs to be, the transfer is apparently not so hot.
______________________________
Stranger than that, we're alive!Whatever you think it's more than that, more than that.
-Incredible String Band
This makes very effective use of wide screen cinematography and has a great musical score.
www.imdb.com (Internet Movie Database)
The Good,Bad,Ugly-#22;OnceUponATimeInTheWest-#35;High Noon-#85;
Butch Cassidy andthe SundanceKid-#110;The Searchers-#122;Unforgiven-#130;The Wild Bunch-#142;TheManWhoShotLibertyValance-#162; Stagecoach-#217 and Rio Bravo-#229. - AH
The Wild Bunch is, perhaps, the western to end all westerns; this is arguably one of the greatest ever made and it's undoubtably the bloodiest, or at least it was when it was released in 1969. This one twists formula into a symbolic parable while tossing convention on it's proverbial ear.
Slim Pickens and Bob Dylan in the same movie. Regards,J.R.
What may disturb you is the " transport " I mean with that the vehicle used by John Ford to express his own view and philosophy. Imagine no western and this drama transposed in another time another place...better?
For a long time I had this kind of " blocade "regarding this genre. Not any more.
Stagecoach is for me one of the very best. Should I say it again, it is in the same class than a novel from Guy de Maupassant.
And that mean something to me.
It was very finely played and filmed.
It make me more than happy.
***Stagecoach is for me one of the very best.I knew that, you mentioned that before, so I was watching with that on my mind... and it still failed to really rock me.
Sorry! Now it would be hard to discuss this issue...Some day...
The critics will tell you that 'The Searchers' is the finest western ever made, although it has a third act flaw with Wayne's Ethan character inexplicably changing his vengeful desire to kill his long estranged niece (finding his humanity?). But I've seen almost every western ever made and I take them for what they are, very few resonant and stay with you.
The exception in my mind is another John Ford western "The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance'. This is my favorite westen ever along with 'The OxBow Incident'. Both go much deeper than the shoot 'em up mentality of most of the ilk.Plus, they are the only thing my father and I can agree on, lol.
My favorite western. Good plot - revenge/crooked lawman/great scenery/wonderful supporting actors. Just a tad long.
It and "The Searchers" ARE the best westerns ever made. Other good ones are "High Noon", "Unforgiven", and two other Wayne efforts, "Red River" and "True Grit".Kubrick was originally picked to direct OEJ but was hired away by Kirk Douglas to direct "Spartacus" when Douglas fired Anthony Mann after just two weeks of shooting. Kubrick moved in with a weekend's notice.
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