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In Reply to: We saw a different movie. (ending revealed) posted by tinear on August 25, 2005 at 13:06:35:
tinear,Well, I can't say that I disliked Vol 2- or was ever bored. I did appreaciate the items you mention, the grave escape and so on. My point- which wasn;t too clear- is that I was so inpressed by thr unconvenionality and surpreise of Vol.1 but Vol.2 did not expand the innovations, but I thought drifted along with the same pattern of scenes used again and again. I like the way Uma's character is revealed only gradually, but in the end I suppose I don't care for empty characters- so much was tried to give her depth, but this always seemed to me too contrived- the tenderness for her daughter in contrast to her vcold-blooded killing for example seemed tacked on to provide contrast.
Because of the long training scenes with the white bearded master, we knew of the "exploding heart" technique. As soon as I heard the long name for the exploding heart, I knew it would be important. Remember the old adage about seeing a gun in a movie- if you show it or mention it, it had better be used at some point! But, I thought a lot of Vol.2 was repetition, yet some things were left out that occurred n Vol.1. When Uma kills Darryl (one-eyed assasin) in the trailer, Uma had not one pinch of the flying and leaping she did in the final battle of Vol 1. Where were those skills? - Darryl was really winning until the last moment with the eye plucking.
Again, it is really by contrast with Vol.1 that I was hoping Vol.2 would have the same striking qualities that sustained Vol.1 so well. One thing that impressed me greatly in Vol.2 was the Carradine character -the Bill of the title. That was a subtle personality and Carradine is pretty amazing- that odd menacing calm. I shouldn't be surprised if "Kill Bill" does for him what "Pulp Fiction" did for Travolta. I still believe many opportunites were missed and the jealous revenge back story- to me- is still ridiculously thin.
This is the problem with this kind of movie. The movie-making is just wonderous, but when the level is so high to begin with, it's easy to heve too high an expectation later. I suppose I have too much of an automatic scrutiny of sequels!
Cheers,
Bambi B
Follow Ups:
on making the perfect hamburger. Think of it like this.
We disagree, again, on the motivation. Jeesh, the guy killed her husband (I don't remember exactly if the ceremony concluded?), shot her in the head, and (she thought) killed the fetus within her: that's THIN justification for revenge? Wow, what more do you want?
Regarding Uma's trailer technique: You're forgetting what she went through, right? Shot in the chest with a shotgun, beaten and buried, walking God knows how many miles. YOU try jumping around after that. Besides, she DID engage in a bit of the flying kicks.
Anyhow, I actually thought the second was a more powerful film, with more story and less "wow, look at that" stuff.
Still, I'll re-visit KBI just to be thrilled again and re-assess my opinion. These films pass my test of excellence: WITHIN their genre, they're great, and they're complex and interesting enough to stand up to multiple viewings.
tinear,I don't question Uma's derire for revenge due to the events of the wedding, it's the original motivation that Bill uses to kill Mr. Uma and injure Uma- and engaging the others of the assasins' group that I can't accept except in a kind of surreal, heightened way- but it's too cartoonish. Even given the loyalty to Bill, why would this group hunt her so intensively and be prepared to die to satisfy Bill's "over-reaction" ? It does function as a cartoon, but to be succesfful throughout, the emotional unreality need to be consistent, and the scenes at the end with the child and her obviously mixed feelings about Bill- break the suspension of disbelief- at least for me.
The trailer scene. I understand Uma's condition, but the techniques,- 30' vertical leaps, cutting off eight ankles in one sweep of the sword, and the super-human stamina of the final battles in Vol. 1 were on a completely different leval. Remember in Vol.1, an equivalent sequencce that Uma kills about 50 people and then immediately walks out into the snow and does the battle in the snow with O-ren Ishii.
I sense you are very, very positive on Vol. 2 and I think the pair of movies are excellent, only that Vol.2 does not sustain the energy, photographic level, emotional environment, and striking unconventionality of Vol 1.
I'll do likewise and see Vol. 2 again- I usually benefit from a sceond viewing as I don't have to focus on the story.
Cheers,
Bambi B
You are thinking way too much. These films were more about the joy of film making, and Tarantino's paying homage to two film genres he loves, karate and spaghetti western films, than about logic. The scene in KBI in which Thurman fights off what seems like hundreds of men is clearly his wink to the audience that any logic need not apply here. It was clearly his homage to those scenes in traditional karate films in which the hero fights off countless of bad guys, taken to the nth degree. If you did not smile, throw logic to the winds, then you took the film too seriously. Frankly, I would rather smile than think during a film, as I am busy thinking all day at work, and doing so again while watching, what it supposed to be entertainment, is not my first preference.KBII was more the western portion of the epic. These films were really designed as one story. How many theaters would book a five hour film? They make their money on concessions, and getting more butts in the seats makes for more popcorn sales. I suspect he broke one film into two largely for this reason. So I am not sure why Tarantino was supposed to do anything different in KBII than he did in KBI with respect to characters, stunts, etc, other than there were not that many karate chops in spaghetti westerns. Consider it one long film, with two acts. How many films, even great films, have such changes within the same film?
jamesgarvin,I don;t disagree that with this kind of movie, one should really sit back and ,let this kind of movie wash over us. And I suspend this kind of analytical (and you can't spell "analytical" without "anal") for certain movies- especially movies that are affectionate takes on other genres. I think of "Raiders of the Lost Ark" in this way- pure entertainment that anyone can understand, and if you can allow yuorself to just let it roll on by- enjoy.
However, my sense with "Kill Bill" is that it aspires to much more, there is so much attention to scenario, camera placement, dialogue and facial expression, and editing, and the interspered scenes, it calls attantion to the craft and philosophical aspects and -for me- triggers thinking about the structure and so on. The genres he wants to evoke do not have these sophistsicated structures for exposition - or not too often. There is a fine line too in "KB" as his homage reaches the level of satire often and satire has a slight condescending component.
I like yourr characterization of the two volumes and what makes the differences. As I say, I think these two are just amazing achievements- I only wanted a bit more consistency in maintaining the suspension of disbelief.
Yes, I smiled a lot through Kill Bill- the violence is just so extreme and palpably portrayed- like the closeup of Uma stepping on the eyeball she has just plucked out. Homage a la "Un chien andalou"?
Cheers,Bambi B
There are plenty of guys that take violent revenge on women; newspapers every week have stories of guys who shoot their wives, kids, and commit suicide.
Bill is a crime lord, with a violent streak of his own. As for his minions doing his bidding, there seems to have been some bad blood, some competitive thing between them before the wedding attack.
I agree with James G that these movies are fun but I think they DO hold together logically within the world they create.
I'm also going to re-visit Jackie Brown because I really need another "fix" of Sam Jackson and DeNiro's characters--- and Bridget Fonda's.
I hear he's trying to get his WWII epic going now but that SPR intimidated him for awhile.
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