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In Reply to: Wondering whether to see United 93 tomorrrow. I hate movies that are set up for sequels... posted by clarkjohnsen on April 29, 2006 at 11:34:30:
Clark, that is simply not the case. I visited the site last October and had a long talk with the farmer who witnessed the crash. It was directly below his home. He was loading firewood for the winter. He saw the plane come in, invert, and go nose first into the ground. There were no flames or other signs of damage prior to the crash. My understanding is the military did not even know about this flight until after it was down. There is no conspiracy.
Follow Ups:
Clark, I've said believe what you want. I believe the man I talked with in great detail. What witness have you talked with about the crash? I don't believe it was a missile and I don't believe there was a bomb on board.
...compare that to pictures of other holes where planes have crashed into the ground. They're on the Net. Do you see a difference? Then read the testimony of people who found parts & stuff scattered around the vicinity. Now what do you think?"There is no conspiracy." That's the biggest howler of all. You're telling us that four airplanes crashed within two hours that morning, three of them into important buildings, and there was no conspiracy? It was just... accidental?
clark
Clark,You know I meant there was no conspiracy to cover up the military shooting it down. Again, I talked with the man who saw it crash. He told the story with tears in his eyes. He was not lying. Believe what you want.
And who said the military shot it down? You're just full of ideas today. But at least you admit, you do believe in conspiracies! Maybe that's a start.clark
Clark, as I said, believe what you want. You do not convince, and I guess, I don't either.
I just happen to be reading a book about Lockerbie, including a description of damage on the ground -- and bear in mind that #108 busted up in the air. "One of the plane's wings hit the ground in the southern area of Lockerbie. It hit the ground with such impact that it created a crater 155 feet long, displacing approximately 1500 tons of dirt." That was *one wing*. Compare that to the the crater made by what's claimed to be a whole plane in Pennsylvania and maybe you'll see the predicament you face.As for witnesses, you have your man but the media (at the time) had others; granted, the official story is different, but if you can sweep these reports under the rug you're a more accepting man that I am:
"Also, residents and workers at businesses outside Shanksville, Somerset County, reported discovering clothing, books, papers and what appeared to be human remains. Some residents said they collected bags-full of items to be turned over to investigators. Others reported what appeared to be crash debris floating in Indian Lake, nearly six miles from the immediate crash scene."
http://post-gazette.com/headlines/20010913somersetp3.asp
"John Fleegle, an Indian Lake Marina employee, said FBI agents were skeptical of his reports about debris in the lake until they traveled to the lake shore Wednesday afternoon.
"By Wednesday morning, crash debris began washing ashore at the marina. Fleegle said there was something that looked like a rib bone amid pieces of seats, small chunks of melted plastic and checks. He said FBI agents who spent the afternoon patrolling the lake in rented boats eventually carted away a large garbage bag full of debris.
"Fleegle, marina owner Jim Brant and two of Brant's employees were among the dozens who witnessed the crash from Indian Lake. Fleegle had just returned to the marina to get fuel for a boat that had run out of gas when Carol Delasko called him into the drydock barn to watch news of the World Trade Center attack.
"'All of a sudden the lights flickered and we joked that maybe they were coming for us. Then we heard engines screaming close overhead. The building shook. We ran out, heard the explosion and saw a fireball mushroom'" said Fleegle, pointing to a clearing on a ridge at the far end of the lake."Delasko, who ran outside moments later, said she thought someone had blown up a boat on the lake. "It just looked like confetti raining down all over the air above the lake," she said.
http://library.triblive.com - search Delasko from 9-10-01 to 9-20-01)
"Witnesses say they heard the plane fly over, felt their building AT THE DOCK shake. The debris evidence also supports the plane flying over Indian Lake AND that plane was falling apart. This debris would have taken 15-20 minutes to float at 10mph and then descend on Indian Lake from the main crash crater. The testimony and evidence do not support the NTSB story that the debris floated from the main crash site."In a morning briefing, state Police Major Lyle Szupinka confirmed that debris from the plane had turned up in relatively far-flung sites, including the residential area of Indian Lake. Investigators appealed to any residents who had come across such debris, in the surrounding countryside or even in their yards, to contact them, emphasizing that even the smallest remnants could prove to be important clues."
http://post-gazette.com/headlines/20010913somersetp3.asp
"Szupinka said searchers found one of the large engines from the aircraft 'at a considerable distance from the crash site. It appears to be the whole engine,' he added.
"Szupinka said most of the remaining debris, scattered over a perimeter that stretches for several miles, are in pieces no bigger than a 'briefcase.'"http://library.triblive.com - search whole engine from 9-10-01 to 9-20-01
All the above plays far more consistent with a blow received in flight, than with the government's (and the movie's, therefore) crash scenario.
clark
Clark, I said believe what you want. I believe the man I talked with
in great detail. You've talked with no one. I don't believe it was a missile and I don't believe there was a bomb on board. I suppose we'll never know for sure.
...in early reports, before the government got its story together.Yep, dozens of witness found debris scattered over miles away from the "crash", but their voices are silent now, so far as the media are concerned. But you, you have that one guy you spoke to... and you're sticking with it!
Have you ever read what folks in OK City were saying on the day of the bombing, or seen them interviewed on TV? The record exists and a whole different story was emerging than the one we later became familiar with. Odd...
clark
...in early reports, before the government got its story together.Enlighten me Clark. What really happened?
...that upsetting people's perceptions is a messy business. Not only that, but I don't *know* what "really happened" -- except it wasn't like in the movie. (Although, what ever is?...)One friend wrote:
"The last thing in the world that real hijackers - hijackers who had allegedly planned and prepared their mission for years, at that! - wouild do is herd the passengers together in the back of the plane where they could form a dangerous and cohesive mob (not to mention unbalancing the aircraft), and then tell them to call home because they are going to die, so that they would then act out of sheer desperation!
"Real hijackers would tell the passengers to remain safely strapped in their seats and stay calm and everything will be OK.
"Cell phones don't work on jet planes. Where are the bills and records of all those alleged cell phone calls? There aren't any.
"The wreckage of flight 93 was strewn over eight miles."
Now, before I say anything more, take a look at the Reuters pic of the "crash" crater linked below. Gaze long and hard. And while I might ask you, "Where do do see the plane debris?" I should think the apparent dimensions alone would be sufficient to give pause. Now, please look.
_______________________________________________________
OK, now -- earlier I quoted you the witnesses and the next day's local newspaper reports. This time I'll rely on an article for reportage of events at the Cleveland airport that I'll bet you hadn't heard about, because after appearing in, again, the local papers they got subsumed into the Consensus Story we all believe... except for some weirdo dissenters like myself. Ready?
The Hollywood version of what happened to United Flight 93 has "set
the record straight," boasts the senior counsel for the 9-11
Commission, while news reports and evidence tell a very different
story.The recently released Hollywood film titled United 93 by Universal
Pictures is touted by John J. Farmer as being "closer to the truth
than every account the government put out before the 9-11
Commission's investigation." Farmer was an attorney general of New
Jersey and served as senior counsel for the 9-11 Commission."The facts of Sept. 11 are as simple as they are grim," Farmer
wrote. "The passengers and crew aboard United Airlines Flight 93
really were alone. They were all that stood between the hijackers
and the Capitol (or possibly the White House)," he wrote. "That is
the core reality of that morning and United 93 gets it right."But the facts about 9-11 are anything but simple and the egregious
omissions and distortions of the politically appointed 9-11
Commission, which Farmer worked with, have only further complicated
the story, as author David Ray Griffin points out in his analysis
of the commission's seriously flawed report.News reports and eyewitness testimony depict a very different fate
having befallen United Flight 93 than either of those portrayed in
the Hollywood film fabrication or the 9-11 Commission report.On the morning of 9-11, for example, the Associated Press reported
that United 93 made an emergency landing at Cleveland Hopkins
International Airport. According to the official version, however,
Flight 93 crashed into a reclaimed mine near Shanksville,
Pennsylvania, shortly after 10 a.m.The AP story clearly reported that United had identified the plane
that landed at Cleveland as Flight 93. Cleveland's Mayor Michael R.
White reportedly said the plane had landed due to suspicion that it
had a bomb aboard.The most obvious problem with the official version that Flight 93
crashed at the site near Shanksville is that the photographs and
eyewitness accounts describe a crater too small for a such a large
plane to have crashed into. The crater at the reclaimed mine was
less than 20 feet across and about 6 feet deep. Yet the official
version claims that into this crater a Boeing 757 airliner
supposedly buried itself, the passengers, the cargo, and thousands
of gallons of jet fuel.Nena Lensbouer, who had prepared lunch for the workers at the scrap
yard overlooking the crash site, said she was the first person to
reach the crater. Lensbouer said that the crater was five to six
feet deep and smaller than the 24-foot trailer in her front yard.
She described the sound as "an explosion, like an atomic bomb" –
not a crash.Somerset County Coroner Wallace Miller, who was one of the first
people to arrive at the crash site, said it looked as if someone
took a scrap truck, dug a 10-foot ditch and dumped trash into it.
Miller said there was nothing visible of human remains and that it
was as if the plane had "stopped and let the passengers off before
it crashed." He said that the most eerie thing about the site was
that he hadn't seen a "single drop of blood."Miller said he was stunned at how small the crater was. "I stopped
being coroner after about 20 minutes," Miller said, "because there
were no bodies there."Asked how Flight 93 disappeared into the crater without leaving a
trace, Bob Leverknight, an active member of the Air National Guard
and correspondent with Somerset's Daily American, told AFP at the
newspaper's office, "It [the ground] liquefied." However, one of
the massive engines, Leverknight said, inexplicably bounced off the
ground and was found at a considerable distance in the woods.A second plane, identified as Delta 1989, was also reported to have
landed at the Cleveland airport due to fears of sabotage. At a news
conference, Mayor White identified the plane as a Boeing 767 flying
from Boston to Los Angeles. It may be more than coincidence that
both of the flights that allegedly struck the World Trade Center
also originated at Boston's Logan Airport.The Akron Beacon Journal reported that the mayor had stated that
200 passengers had been released from the plane at 11:15 a.m. The
airport in Cleveland had been evacuated at 10 a.m. "Airline
passengers and crew members were walking onto the highway to find
their rides as no cars were allowed into the passenger drop off and
pick up areas," the Journal reported.The following day, Sept. 12, the Journal reported that an
eyewitness had watched the Delta plane sitting near the I-X Center,
which is a facility at the southeast edge of the airfield. It also
reported that 78 passengers "were taken to NASA Glenn Research
Center to be interviewed by FBI agents." The NASA facility is at
the extreme northwest end of the airfield.American Free Press called the former mayor at his 45-acre alpaca
ranch, Seven Pines Alpacas in Newcomerstown, Ohio, to inquire about
the events at the Cleveland airport on 9-11. White, however, was
unwilling to discuss anything and cut the conversation short
saying, "I'm out of the interview business."____________________________________________________________
Let's stipulate that while that information may stir one's curiosity, it doesn't name very many names, as it were. So here's the site that details numerous press reports and witness testimony about those odd events in Cleveland not reported in the TimesPost Globe:
http://911review.org/inn.globalfreepress/Cleveland_Airport_Mystery.html
Let's move onto something else.
s
Doesn't disturb me at all. We are simply too far apart, on this subject, for any further dialogue to be worthwhile. My view has not changed. Regards, Wendell.
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