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Something for those evenings when you have nothing better to do and it is still too early to go to bed.By no means from the category of "serious" films, and as far as the Best Film... give me a break.
Some here came down hard on it, and while it deserves great dose of it, it is not a "horrible" film, as far as the second-rate ones go.
What is interesting... I hate Leonardo, but this was the first film where I actually liked him. While Nicholson perhaps still dominated the film, albeit using his too-trademarkish and too-familiar tricks, Leonardo gave possibly the best performance. The director made him do things that were not conducive to good deep acting, and he still managed to raise above it. Let's face it - there is not much depth to his character, but given its limitations he did a superb job.
The plot is tortured and not much to write home about, just enough to keep you mildly entertained without getting you involved, it is so superficial it hardly deserves any serious critique. I suppose the director expected the tired idea of two twins separated at birth working on two sides of a great divide to have enough legs to carry the film... well, that didn't happen. It IS tired and it had been done better before... making them sleep with the same girl was definitely NOT a mark of a genius. Superficial, obvious effects that should not be present in anything claiming serious status. Good enough for a high school production, perhaps, otherwise from the category of cheap tricks that add nothing.
This film would be lost in the stream of violent action kaka you see on certain TV channels, even if in reality it is above most of them. Such is its fate.
A forgettable experience, that might still be better than what Patrick is going through - his wife brought home Borat.
Follow Ups:
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I found it to be a rather intriguing didactic between the moral and immoral, belief and disbelief, faith and apostasy, consciousness and oblivion ... a commentary on man's quest to give meaning to life and motive to action in an ultimately meaningless existence. One of the film's central images -- the blowing out of people's brains, is telling. The uniforms or lack thereof, in the police, the frocks, or lack thereof, among the film's do-gooders, are other interesting keys.The employment of the classic literary device, the separated twins, to you an object of ridicule, places it in a dramatic tradition that includes Greek Drama and Shakespeare.
DiCaprio, an actor I never much admired, gives an astonishingly good performance. Damon is a bit more stolid and unimaginative -- yet earnest and effective. Jack is well, Jack. And though he always seems to be Jack, his has some wonderful moments.
It is easy to approach the film with a dismissive attitude. After all, it's a another Scorcese crime romp, at first glance. But it is a far more ambitious and successful film than many Scorcese had made -- and one of the few films that ever deserved a best picture oscar. I just wish he would quit plastering scenes over with rock anthems, which seem so often life square pegs forced into round holes.
I'd like to hear more.Your first sentence could be said about virtually any film; how does it speak to the qualitative nature of this one?
What is the "blowing out of brains" telling of? Again in the context of an argument for the film's quality.
What are the uniforms or frocks or their lack thereof "interesting keys" to?
The "twins" device is a classic one but does its mere inclusion imbue or underpin automatic excellence?
Finally, are you aware of the inherent derivative nature of The Departed, it being a virtually straight forward remake of the Japanese original? Isn't it incumbent on the part of the "copiers", so to speak, to attempt to bring something new to the remake attempt? The new, or lack thereof, then becoming legitimately subject to a qualitative comparison to the original, or to previous standards set by the "copiers"?
I give you the fact that the character renderings are personal judgement calls and are a pointless object of pursuit for argument.
"Your first sentence could be said about virtually any film ..."Really? Could it be said about Jaws? Or Meatballs? I used the word "didactic;" while not entirely inappropriate, perhaps "dialectic" would have been more more to the point. The film, quite consciously, sets up mirror images, opposing poles, of good and evil, morality and immorality, of the police, say, and the underworld, and then begins to dismantle them. The uniform, the identifiable good, is replaced by the more ambigious "under cover" guise. The good is infiltrated by the evil, the evil by the good. The Damon character assassinates his superior, the Nicholson characerter, on "moral" grounds, because he is a "snitch". There is a simple irony here: the Damon character is himself a snitch. His outrage is sparked by the realization that his moral compass has been lost, that he has, in effect, been worshiping a false god. And isn't the Nicholson character just a replacement for the Priest he served as a boy? The DiCaprio character's origins are from the opposite pole of the social order: though he has a criminal background, he gravitates toward the police. Without getting into a carefully premediated exigesis on the films themes and conceptual structure, I think it is fairly easy to agree that this dialectic was consciously contrued and explored by Scorcese. The film's dramatic development can be seen as an exercise in cancelling out these polar opposites, in an attempt to arrive at come irreducible kernal of meaning, or morality, or goodness.
Mind you, I have seen the film ONCE. But these themes struck me as preoccupations of the director.
With regard to "blowing brains out," this is a central image that reoccurs, not accidentally or without conscious purpose thoughout the film. Think of the number of such executions. Also, remember the police instructors explain in almost pornographic detail what happens when a certain shell enters the brain, with the little pieces of of the shatter bullet cutting though grey matter like tiny razor blades. To me, this suggested oblivion, nihilism, the existential irradication of meaning, morality and human impetus. This blackness highlights and exposes the futility of human action, and casts a tragic pall on the characters whose actions are predicated upon the arbitrary human contructs of good and evil, and of morality. That again relates to the idea of "frocks" and "uniforms." Moral action in this film is reduced to a costume; or, it could be argued that Scorcese really intended to show that morality transends costumes and human endeavor -- that, again, demonstrates the dialectical nature of the film.
Do you find this kind of studied exploration of morality and meaning and human motivation in "virtually any film"?
As to the derivative nature of the film, it is artistically irrelevant. Shakespeare's greatest play "King Lear," was derivative. Kubrick's undeniable masterpiece, "2001," was derivative. So? But derivativeness is certainly NOT a basis to demean or devalue an artistic work. Often, it is suggestive of a broader range of reference, an consciousness of literary and artistic tradition, which ought to militate in the opposite direction.
Before I saw this film, I was ready to dismiss it myself. "Oh no! not another Scorcese crime flick! And now they're rolling out Jack Nicholson as a bad guy? What happended, was DiNiro too busy?" The only reason I ordered it was because there was absolutely nothing else on television on a night when I really felt like watching television. But I found myself, as the film unfolded, with a greater and greater appreciation of what Scorcese was trying to achieve.
I am sorry if this is not as lucid as it might be. Heck, I'm not writing a term paper here. But I hope that, at least, you can see there is some empiracal basis for my assertion that this movie, itself masquerading as a simple crime flick, an underlying high seriousness.
I wish there were more of it. I much prefer personal elaboration, no matter the eloquence, to sarcastic sniping or sophomoric witticisms. There's some pretty smart jousting occasionally. That's fun.As for Jaws or Meatballs having elements in opposition. I think the answer is yes. Any good story, by definition, will. The descriptions and the devices used - the moral context - will vary, of course. How that variance is characterized determines the art of it.
God vs evil. That's what life and stories of life are all about. It can be handled as comic or dramatic in any art form.
As for derivation, I think you missed my point. I asked about the validity for an expectation of bringing something qualitatively new to the remake. Any critical comments are insufficient, otherwise.
I solicited your further remarks sincerely. I thought you opened up a lot of " 'splainin" room. LOL. My reasons for participating here are to learn, to share, to be sociably involved, to be entertained. Yours weren't apparent; that's why I asked.Your term paper? A+, for effort! ;-)
Your challenges were, in my view, entirely appropriate, and pointed. My first post was intented only to suggest that this film had much greater merit than some had bestowed upon it. I employed shorthand in an instance where more expansive and specific arguments were really in order. I left a lot, "unsplained."With regard to the idea that a derivational work ought to bring something "new" to a story's treatment, I guess I would have to agree -- otherwise, why bother? Interesting cases in point are the recent remakes of "Psycho" and "King Kong," I found the first pointless and gratuitous; the second, an earnest, and sucessful, attempt to put more flesh on the bones of the original story.
In the case of "The Departed," I can't really say, since I have not seen the original film upon which it was based.
Even so, taking the film on its own terms and without reference to its predecessor, I think it packs a wallop. There's a lot going on there. It has, in my mind, an allegorical, almost mythical quality to it, disguised in the wrapper of a crime thriller. If Scorcese cribbed this from the original (was it "Internal Affairs"?) shame on him! If he saw this in a story which lacked this dimension, it bears testament to his superior artistic vision.
...is well-taken.I've only seen it the one time, and after watching Infernal Affairs. In disappointment, I judged it hard. Dammit, with all that firepower, it should be better.
I did have few specific compliments for it in an earlier discussion.
I won't rush out to see it soon again but if/when I get around to it, I'll try to be a little more forgiving. Maybe I'll see something I missed. After all, to a real movie lover, even a bad film can be a good experience. Heh, heh.
Leonardo is improving, you're right. So much is expected of him. He has so many superior contemporaries. Is he the "new" Gable?
Mr. Scorsese should have you on his marketing team.
Thanks for sharp little chat. I enjoyed it.
.
Thanks.
but it seems like such an obvious fact, so much so, that even the Oscar people blew it during the broadcast. The t.v. voice-over claimed it as Japanese while they were presenting the screen play award.
...humble.I didn't warch the Oscars presentation. So they acknowledged the original in their praise for the remake? Have you seen the "sequels" referred to in a thread above?
You seem pretty handy around Oriental film. Any overlooked gems to recommended?
Cheers.
Tsui Hark and Wong Jing, both from HK.There is a great film you may have missed by Japaene director Kaneto Shindô, called Onibaba (1964). I don't visit this board enough to know how popular it is.
I also like OZU films and the insanity of Takashi Miike (Ichi the Killer, Audition).
By the way, a few years back the term "Oriental" was replaced by "Asian".
....Ozu IS JAPANESE!!!!!! LOL!!
...I'm familiar with. I'll look into the others. Thanks.Who replaced "Oriental" with "Asian" Why?
I sincerely appreciate your looking out for my manners but Oriental has been a good word for centuries. I stiffen at PC language. I'll take your word for there being a better reason, if you can just clue me in.
Negro was once used wdely, today it is appropriate to use either Black or AA.
Asian?
no.
Somehow it reminds me of it.
So, a friend of my wife lend her this film and after reading Victor commentary I was eager to find this film wonderful, intelectually challenging and satisfying in every possible way.In one word: MERDE.
s
The second word - cretin - is for those who... well, you know...But please... tell people around you that that idiocy is not America.
It was not the film dummy, it was the Pinot....
asd
Donīt you..
No sense of humor and no cleverness, either.
s
-Leo did a fairly good if not somewhat over acted part in this movie. There were a couple scenes where I feel he tried to hard to be a tough guy (which I have a hard time accepting from him).
-Jack was OK. I think he also over acted his part a bit. But then I'm not really a Jack fan.
-Sheen was robotic, he should have stopped staring at the naked girl beside the camera during:
-Wahlberg's main scene in Sheen's office was pretty much the worst scene in the movie to me. He's being nominated for an award for this? I think he was better in Planet of the Apes.
-I think Damon did a pretty good job and am starting to enjoy a number of his roles.
The plot was a good concept to some degree. I don't know that they had to have the same girl. Not required to me; didn't add much.
All told I enjoyed the movie, but I won't exactly be running out to buy it (unless perhaps it hits the $6 bin at Wal-Mart, then maybe...).
Why don't I like so many mainstream hits that others do? Crash for example. Dunno.
"Making them both sleep with the same girl" was lame indeed. What you probably missed (although I had covered it in my writeup) was how closely the characters and events were based on the real-life Boston crime boss Whitey Bulger (whose brother, similarly, was president of the Massachusetts Senate). Only, Whitey was worse, far worse, than even Nicholson was allowed to portray.I loved the movie as a Saturday matinee; perhaps your mistake was taking it evening-seriously. Ya gotta loosen up sometimes Victor.
clark
I had fun time, I simply rated the film as I think it deserved.
Between this and his performance in Blood Diamond he went from being an actor I didn't much care for to being one I find riveting.
Don't piss on my shoe and tell me it's raining.
I think it's exaggeration to call this film "second rate". But be that as it may, if you liked DiCaprio in this you should check out his performance in "blood Diamond", which is a better film.
...is what you earlier called "The Departed. Now Blood Diamond is the better film? C'mon Rico, stay strong. ;-)
I saw "The departed PRIOR to seeing "Blood Diamond" and made that comment befre seeing the second film. BTW, I now consoider "Notes on a Scandal" the best film of 2006, having seen that last.
..In the same category of much ado about little. Ordinary.Notes On A Scandal was really a bore to me. I like Blanchett but her heart wasn't in that character. Dame Judith playing against type, so to speak, was unconvincing and showed a rather desperate and unsuccessful attempt on her part, I thought, to put one last jewel in her distinguished crown. I felt a bit sad for her. Truth be known, I bet she was embarrassed at the Oscar campaign on her behalf. It was not a particularly notable performance for her.
On a visceral level I enjoyed Blood Diamond more of the three but there's nothing transcendant there. I'd rather watch Missouri Breaks one more time. Heh, heh.
Back to The Departed. Declaring it a "masterpiece" then replacing it as "best of year" with TWO subsequent films: that's very heady territory. ;-)
I consider "Missouri Breaks" the worst western ever made and one of the worst films ever made.
..and your rationale is so well argued, too. I'll have to reconsider. Hmmm.... nope, you're still wrong.Don't worry too much. though, you still have time to grow up,
asd
Can't one say "The best I've seen so far"?
.
...to get your take on "Infernal Affairs", the Hong Kong film that The Departed was based on...
well done, exciting, and well-acted thriller. Far superior in its genre to "The Departed."
The second, in the series, is every bit as good as "I."
Even though I like Marky Mark a lot I was surprised to see him nominated for such a one dimensional role. It's hard to believe any organization could handle somebody like that on a daily basis.
...
"I'm going to go pack for France."
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