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I am looking for a good plasma screen to hang on the wall between my stereo speakers - can't fit a CRT where I want to watch TV and DVD, far too deep and blocks the fireplace, so has to be flat, and chose plasma over projector because I want a straightforward TV/DVD setup and the room has huge windows and thin curtains which would mean only watching late at night with a projector. Plus I go to sleep early.Anyway, I've been trying to decide what to get and becoming increasingly frustrated. Two things stymie me: (1) the fact that very few shops in the UK actually stock demo models of 50" plasmas, so I have to look at the 42" model and assume the 50" one is just as good (salespeople insist even better, of course), and (2) that very few shops set them up properly.
It's also just confusing to read the reviews in the specialist UK press that, say, eulogise over the latest Panasonic 42" for its' "astonishing levels of contrast and black levels" - or whatever - and urge you to go buy that one, only for me to wander into a so-called specialist shop with one on demo and be astonished at the amount of video noise and speckles, the lack of detail in the blacks, the sheer not-very-goodness of the damn thing.
Then I wander into another specialist shop where they've obviously spent some time extracting the very best from their plasmas becuase the quality of the picture on the Fujitsu I'm looking at is miles better than the Panasonic, even on TV broadcasts let alone progressive scan DVDs. Yet the press I've seen merely rates the Fujtisu as "quite good" and is positively drooling over the Panasonic in a total contradiction of the evidence before my eyes and I start to doubt myself as well as wonder if the shop is just trying to shift Fujitsu plasmas becuase they have too much stock so they've wound down the contrast on the others to "help" me make a choice.....
Who do I trust - the reviewers or the salespeople and the evidence of my own eyes?
One chance I might of had of really checking out the Plasmas on offer is in Selfridges in Oxford Street, where they have Sony, Pioneer, Panasonic, Fujitsu, Sharp, LG, Toshiba, you name it, in 42" and 43" and 50" models all stuck up on the walls next to each other.... and would you know it, the Sony plasmas look nicer than the Panasonics, but that's not saying much because they all look fairly awful, with the exception of the 50" Pioneer which is simply streets ahead of the rest. Even the Fujitsu which worked so well in a specialist local shop is a poor relation, with obvious lumpy colours destroying subtle flesh tones and no detail in the rocks in "Lord of the Rings".
But, then, this is a brightly lit, noisy environment and the screens aren't being shown at their best and, with a good setup, maybe that Pioneer - not even the latest just-released-to-rave-reviews model, but the 503 (I think) - would be outclassed by the Fujitsu. I have to be sure becuase these things don't cost peanuts!
Even more confusing, the new rave-review Pioneer 434 in a black surround is on the wall over the 50" 503 and... it looks worse. Just nothing special.
So, a plea: Help!
I am told my by specialist might-be-trying-to-shift-stock salesperson that the reason why the Fujitsu is better is becuase it has multiple options for adjustment - not just the contrast and brightness and colour temp of the more run of the mill Pioneer/Panasonic jobbies, but extra features to change the individual strength of red, green and blue, I dunno, other mystery options I don't understand..... and consequently can be set up much better than the others. And that reviewers just don't take the time to set them up properly. Which I sort of half believe..... but we're talking five to seven thousand pounds expenditure, so I have to check!
What can any videophiles tell me?
1. Is it true - the Fuji is the best in the business, but needs careful setup to really shine?
2. Why is the Pioneer 503 so good with minimal setup as viewed in Selfridges where they just take them out of the box and sling them on the walls with factory settings? Better factory settings I suppose..?
3. Should I wait (there's a shipment delay as they're so new) for a proper demo of the new Pioneer plasmas that are heavily advertised, the 43" model well reviewed but fairly bland on a Selfridges wall, or just accept that the Fuji is the mutts nuts and go for it?
4. Any other advice?Thanks...!!
Follow Ups:
Just to let you know I have ordered the 50" Fujitsu and it is being delivered tomorrow. I actually bought the Fuji from an Internet site because they were miles cheaper and had it in stock, where my local dealer wanted an extra £900 and had a queue of customers waiting an undefined time for it.....Thanks for your help. I will be looking at an iScan Ultra to do video switching & progressive scan upgrades for my Sky Digibox, DVD player (not progressive) and Playstation/XBox!
Peter, wow you really went for it. Congrats!Do us a favor: Let us know how it looks once it's up and running.
(BTW, as far as putting the signal through the iScan, I hope the signal does not suffer at all. In my experience, some outboard scalers that are supposed to "help" the plasma image actually add another level of conversion that detracts from the image).
Best of luck.
Rich H.
If you want HD, 50" has the advantage of square pixels...From what I have watched casually on stores and shows, the NECs have the truer colors, then Pioneer, never liked Panasonic and Fudgitsu much, is a bit like Fudgi and Kodak film for me, I always preferred Kodak...
Antonio Melo Ribeiro
Peter,Joe, as usual, covered pretty much everything beautifully.
I'll just add a bit of my experience:
It is really, tough evaluating displays in store set-ups. I have never, ever seen a plasma, or any display, look as good as it can in a store -- even in "high end" AV stores. They just don't set them up with the care of the coconscious home owner.
Whenever I audition a display, and I've auditioned most of the best CRT tube sets, CRT RPTVs, DLPs/LCD RPTVs, and almost every plasma out there, I make sure I have control over the picture settings, that it's in a dedicated set-up (no split-feeds to other displays) and when possible control over the surrounding lighting. Not everyone is as pushy as me :-) So I think I have a pretty good handle on plasma vs the competition.
If you saw one of the better plasmas (Fujitsu/Panasonic/Pioneer) and were not impressed something was wrong with the set up or picture settings. I own the Panasonic 42" ED plasma and it displays one of the best DVD images I've ever seen in terms of richness, clarity, depth, dimensionality, smoothness, lack of artifacts and sheer realism. Virtually every guest who watches a movie on the thing, and that includes quite a number of my fellow AV geek pals, are just awe-struck at the impact of the image. (The Panasonic model, and the Fujitsu that use the Panasonic glass, have deep black levels that allow the picture to look even better with the lights out. Whereas some other brands with less stellar black levels look more washed out when you lower the lights. But you'll never see how good these things look until you see them "home theater style" in dark lighting, were the detail, vividness and dimensionality take on another level).
So...yeah, plasma definitely can dish out the goods picture-quality-wise, and they are worth pursuing.
BTW, here's a link to screen shots I took of movies playing on my plasma:
http://www.pbase.com/chunkofunk/screen_shots_gallery
Rich H.
No HDTV in the UK? That's kind of sad, considering the choices that are avaiable in the US. Aren't there plans for HDTV in early 2004 for many parts of Europe?When you visit most stores, you really need to understand that they are just a middleman for the manufacturers. Very few salesmen and manufacturer reps really know what they are talking about. Most of the time, what salesmen tell you comes straight from the rep and what the rep tells them comes from the marketing department. That's not to say there aren't some very knowlegeable reps and salesmen, but they are few and far between.
If you've decided that a plasma display is what you really want, the next thing to consider is the size of the display. Here are some general rules for determining what size is most appropriate. However, it's not written in stone that the recommended size is the only size that will work. Everyone is different in what they see and expect from a display and that is why the rule is a generalization -- not a law.
The two most popular models are the 42" and 50" plasmas. If your seating distance is 8ft - 12ft, the 42" model suits the needs of most owners. The 50" is usually recommended if the seating distance is in the 10ft - 16ft area.
If you decide on a 42" model, you'll need to decide if you need an ED model or an HD model. The ED model pixel structure is 852x480, while the HD models vary from 1024x768 to 1024x1024. Keep in mind that while the ED model isn't capable of a Hi-Def resolution, most of the ED models will still accept an HD signal and downconvert it to the displays resolution. Even downconverted, the pictures that these displays are capable of presenting are still quite breathtaking.
Again, in general, the ED model is recommended for a minimum seating distance of 8ft -- not closer. The HD model, because of its greater resolution and number of pixels, is recommended for a seating distance as close as 6ft. I don't know of too many people that would want to sit 6ft away from a 42" display, but it's capable of giving quite a nice picture should you need it. At a distance of about 8ft - 10ft, the ability to differentiate between the ED and HD models becomes very dependent on ones visual acuity. Many 42" plasma owners base their decision not on the seating distance, but on the capability of their eyesight.
If you decide to go with a 50" model, there will be no ED/HD decision -- they're all HD displays. The common pixel structure in this size is 1366x768, though some models are 1280x768. This small deviation should not be relevant in the decision making process.
As for the "What is the best plasma" theme in your post, all I can say is that choosing what's best for "you" is more important. If the Fujitsu is beyond your reach or will stretch your financial means a great deal, that's probably not the one for you. Not many people would want to deal with the ramifications of overspending and the consequences they tend to bring. At the other end, I would caution someone about the purchase of a plasma (or anything else, for that matter) just because it was the least expensive of the models. There is usually a price you have to pay for an expected level of quality and, more often than not, that expected level of quality is seldom found at the bottom of the price range.
I can tell you that the person you describe in the second to last paragraph is misleading you. All plasmas, like other displays, have certain features and adjustments that are readily accessible by the owner. The adjustments that he is referring to are located in the service menu. Most manufacturers do not give you the codes or the ability to access the service menu very easily. These adjustments should only be accessed by a qualified technician or someone who really understands what they are doing and why they are doing it. That eliminates about 90% or more of today's owners. The display can be seriously messed up, though not unresetable, if you should make changes that you shouldn't be making. It's very easy to do: I've seen the cries for help in other forums. The point that I'm trying to make is that all displays have these adjustments available -- not just one brand.
Any display that you see in an uncontrolled environment is subject to being poorly set up. How good they look, which is another very subjective point, will depend on how well they were set up at they factory, how well the store set them up, who got control of the remote and subsequent "personal calibration" duties, etc. Unless you know that the two displays you are comparing were properly set up, it's not a fair comparison. And that goes for all displays.
Based on what I have seen posted by owners, reviews in magazines and online, shootouts set up by owners and observations made in several stores by actually looking at the displays myself, here's the general consensus on the rankings: Fujitsu, Panasonic, Pioneer/NEC/Hitachi, Sony, Samsung/Daewoo/Sampo. I caution you that this is my opinion and, even though it is based on a few years of research, is not the last word on plasma displays.
Fujitsu uses glass from Panasonic, considered the best plasma glass manufacturer, in their current 50" and 42" ED model. Their 42" HD model uses Fujitsu/Hitachi glass. Their innovative processor, the AVM chip, is considered "the" plasma processor.
Panasonic, through the use of their highly acclaimed glass, comes close to the Fujitsu in picture quality. For most potential buyers, this is the one to get. Excellent electronics and the best glass for a price that's usually a good bit below the Fujitsu.
Pioneer and NEC are pretty much even, though their picture is different. The Pioneers tend to excel in color rendition, though some perceive it to be a bit much, but sacrifice a bit in black level (dark gray). The new models are an improvement, but the black levels stiil don't match the Panasonic and Fujitsu models. The NECs are are also very good performers and tend to be more neutral in color rendition, while doing a bit better than Pioneer in the black level. If you like your colors to "pop", neutral may not do it for you. But if you'd prefer your colors not to "pop", NEC may be the better choice. The picture quality on Hitachi's new models seems to be a combination/cross between Pioneer and NEC.
Sony produces some very nice designs. But if you're in it for picture quality, they're still a bit behind in that category. The Sony's tend to have a soft look and might be in need of a contrast boost. Black levels don't quite match the Pioneers.
The last three, Samsung/Daewoo/Sampo, are probably not the best choices for someone that expects that certain level of quality. It's not that they are bad displays, but compared to the others, they leave a bit to be desired. I'm sure some people will find these thoughts quite contrary to theirs. In the end, it's all subjective. One of these three might be a perfect fit for someone other than myself.
What you can do is search the internet for as much information as you can find. Visit as many stores as you can to check out as much plasma inventory as you can. Read comments from owners of the displays that you are interested in. Sometimes what you think you really want might not be what's best for you. Then again, what you want might actually be a perfect match. But make sure that the decision you make is "your" decision -- not someone elses.
And last, but not least, take a look, do some searches and researching on the best plasma forum available today:
I use PAL on the NEC 42MP3 and it looks very good. I would not jump up to a 50" plasma with PAL.Did you see the offer SKY is making on the plasma display / plus package? It doesn't look like a bad offer and the price is right in line with what I paid for my display in the states.
Alan
Why not?I am not familiar with SKY. Living in the US, it's probably not something I could see.
I'm from Jersey myself, but work calls for me to be over here. BSkyB is really the only form of digital sat tv visible in the UK. It's kinda like Dish Networks except every channel is packed together with Dish Networks own 25 versions of HBO. But considering the alternative of dead air space Sky is not too bad.Alan
Wow! Thanks a bunch for the long reply.On size, I cut out large pieces of cardboard to match the dimensions of the Fuji plasma and stuck them on the wall. The 42" looks dwarfed from my seatingt position, which is about 8-10ft from the wall. Hence I want 50".
Price is not no object but if I had to choose between two models and one was over a thousand pounds cheaper then there's no contest!
I'll check out the forum link you advise.
Thanks again
Peter
...too small. I would advise you to get the Pioneer 50" (over $7,000 but hey, you gotta have HDTV,...haven't you?
No HDTV in the UK.
No HDTV in UK? But what about compatibility with future Hi-Def DVD?
Until Sky makes the move to HDTV I think the UK is out of luck. I haven't heard any major talk from either the BBC or Sky about HDTV.Scaler based dvd players are an option. I designed a player that offers 480i, 480p, 720p, 1080i, and PAL that is all user selectable. But you have to have a market for the product. The only thing that looks promising for the UK is 720p (maybe). You have to understand PAL is not a bad looking format compared to NTSC. But you also have to understand all programing is packaged under Sky for the most part and they have no intensions of expanding at this present time. Once Sky makes the move I'm sure you'll see more and more tv sets offer optional resolution input formats.
Alan
Since this would be a long term purchase (I've had my current Sony windescreen TV for over ten years) it should really have compatibility with future formats in mind. The Fuji has component video inputs and I was thinking about buying a line doubler/scaler thingy - can get one for around £700, Silicon Image I think is the brand name - which could do both Sky for TV and my current DVD player which doesn't do progressive scan (Pioneer DV717).Mind you, the newest Pioneer has HDMI.....
I have to say I'm still worried about what choice to make! But am leaning towards the Fuji as I know I can get local support.
Ok...you should not need a scaler for the plasma display. Most come with very good internal scalers. I have compared the Silicon Image products and the scaler inside my NEC was superior.As for contrast ratio's....try to find something around 1500:1. Anything higher is unrealistic. Remember you are still going to calibrate the display to 6500K. Black level is still poor with the technology compared to a direct view monitor.
The NEC accepts all resolution formats. It will scale the format to the native resolution of the display. It has component rca and bnc connectors, composite, s-video, and dvi.
Alan
internal scalers: I did wonder about that, but my local specialist told me the Fuji didn't have one and he wasn't aware of any plasmas available that did have one.... is he lying?Mind you, he's a much, much more informed buy than the rival shop down the street who demoed me a Panasonic 42" plasma with some £1k scaler fitted before it to "improve" the picture and, when I asked them to remove it so I could see the difference, dicovered absolutely *no* difference whatsoever. All they could say was "if you look on the Gladiator DVD, which I can't find at the moment, then it's much more obvious what the scaler is doing" but despite which I could clearly see the speckles of noise in the black when I stuck my face up close to the display. Very disappointing.
I've now got a shortlist of the Fuji 50" and the Pioneer 50", either the 503 (cheaper) or the 504 (potentially better, but with garish black surround). I even emailled Pioneer UK and asked where I could see the new models, but their reply was simply that they were to be released at the end of November, and so I couldn't see them anywhere (which doesn't explain how a really, really poor shop in Tottenham Court road managed to have a 42" one three weeks ago, nor how Selfridges could have a 42" one on the wall on Friday night). Ultimately it means the ones in this country have probably been handed over to reviewers to drool over, and preferred stores like Selfridges and Harrods to stick on their walls, and there's no chance I'll get one by Xmas if I order now... :(
Let's take a different tack. The new Pioneer has an HDMI input. If I stick with Component inputs as are provided on the Fuji, am I going to lose out? At least, not until ten years time when we get hologram TVs from MitsuiFujiSonysonic?
Yeah he's lying or doesn't understand his product.Once you narrow the display down to 1 or 2 units contact a plasma broker. I purchased my unit that way and was very satisfied with the service and transaction. A broker will also talk price to make the sale.
Alan
If not, someone needs to tell them their clowns are loose. You might want to see if there's a reward.The Fujitsu should have a DVI input. If not, it's probably a 2002 or earlier model. The 2003s have DVI-HDCP inputs.* In the video department, DVI and HDMI are more or less the same. HDMI adds the capability of digital audio and some control signals (so components can talk to each other) -- not much to gain for a display: it's more geared towards linking source components and/with receivers/processors. For the most part, DVI-HDCP vs HDMI ends in a tie for displays.
That said, when true 1920x1080p displays become available, HDMI has the bandwidth for this resolution. Single-link DVI will handle 1080i and 720p resolution, what's available today, quite easily. There are currently no native 1080p sources and no native 1080p plasmas. Samsung, LG Electronics and Fujitsu may change that in late 2004. Rest assured, prices for these 70"+ plasmas will start at about $20k, so start fasting now.
If you have a DVI capable DVD player, you can get a DVI-to-HDMI cable from Panasonic for $40US. All of the digital video will be transferred to the display. I think the HDMI-to-HDMI cables, for DVD players that will have an HDMI output, will run about $50US.
* Fujitsu: DVI-HDCP on current modelsHD model
http://www.plasmavision.com/P42VHA20US.htmlED model
http://www.plasmavision.com/P42HHA10WS.html
Joe, thanks for your help on this. I don't plan to route digital audio to the display so there's no worries about HDMI versus DVI; would just be using the plasma as display, although with a couple of small speakers tacked onto the side for when I'm watching TV as I don't want to fire up the full hi-fi experience for, say, the BBC news.Just one final question - does the AVM processor in the Fuji essentially do the job of the Silicon Image iScan line doubler, or would that still have a worthwhile impact on the lower-quality programme from Sky TV?
I really can't tell you which processor would win in a shootout. The DVDO units are well respected for the job that they do and the capabilities that they have. But Fujitsu's AVM processor is just as respected. Unless you can do a side by side comparison or find someone who has or had both to compare, there's just no way of knowing.You can interpret the meaning of this for yourself, but I searched on AVS forum with several combinations of fujitsu, iscan and dvdo for an interval of the last 6 months. I only found one person who asked about using one with his Fujitsu plasma: there were no responses, despite the fact that several members on AVS own Fujitsu plasmas.
It sounds like SKY is a turd. And as you should know, polishing a turd doesn't change the fact that it's still a turd no matter how hard or how long you polish it. If you insist on trying to make it look good, the only way that illusion is going to work is to feed it what it was designed for -- a 27" - 36" direct view CRT.
We also have SKY digital down here.It's no more a turd than the small dish/MPEG2 based systems you have in the US.
:P
If your display device has RGB capability, SKY digital can look pretty good. Even on 50" plasmas.
cheerio
just to add...the differences between the scalers (if any) will be very small. Today's plasma units offer very good internal scaling. I have tried the DVDO and Focus Enhancements products on my display and saw very little difference. The NEC was superior to the DVDO, while the Focus Enhancement was slightly superior with the 852 x 480 format. The enhancements were so small that I put the scaler up for sale and now use the NEC as the main unit.The trick to a great plasma image is clean ac. Filtered ac can do wonders for a plasma video image. Of late I have been involved with a OEM project for a scalable dvd player. I was very impressed with the 1080i output into the NEC. The big selling point for me was the sharper image and color saturation. A couple of days ago I just put the finishing touches on a new power conditioner design I have been working on for 120-240v applications. Prior to the power conditioner the OEM player surpassed a EAD TheaterVision dvd player I have in house that uses DVDO progressive outputs. After I added the power conditioner the EAD was the equal to the OEM model. The image was sharper, more dimensional, and had improved color saturation. My point is there are lots of ways to improve the image besides scaling.
Alan
Ok, that's fair enough. Actually, I forgot to note another reason for considering the iScan scaler/line doubler would be to convert from various sources - Svideo, SCART, even composite - into component so there is only one run of cable snaking its' way through my rafters and down to where the plasma is going to hang from (it'll be hanging over the fireplace from the ceiling).
you are not worried about component video with a plasma display, the important issue is that your input video source matches the display native resolution. the nice thing about using the internal scaler is that it will convert your video source to the native resolution. if you want to purchase a scaler then i suggest something like a nrs that matches the native resolution. any old scaler like a dvdo will not match the native resolution. one of the big things we did with the dvd player is we made sure we covered plasma resolutions. right now we offer 852 x 480 standard via the dvi output. our component allows you to flip between 480p, 720p, and 1080i. most outboard scalers only output 600 x 480m (typical dvdo circuit).alan
Last I heard, NEC's DVI input didn't accept an HDCP signal. That could be a real bummer if you tried to use one of the better DVD players with a DVI-HDCP or HDMI output.
I use dvi into the tv all the time with no problems. HDCP is more for set top boxes in the US. Anyone in the UK will not have to deal with those issues. DVI and SDI are formats not offered over here in Europe. Matter of fact I haven't even seen a really high quality sat receiver that offers multiple video connections. The digibox used by Sky is at least 5 or 6 years behind what we are selling in the states. The biggest issue over here is the scart connector. Pending the design of the component you can offer RGB in/out, composite in/out, and audio in/out signals. It's rare to see any other type of connection used in a a/v system. I use a scart to composite adapter because my digibox only offers composite out.Alan
Except for a scarce few, the majority of DVD players that offer a DVI output also send an HDCP signal out of the DVI port. If you don't have an HDCP compliant display, you're out of luck getting a digital connection.In the US, HDCP is not too much of a concern for STBs at this time for HDTV content. However, when the encryption gets turned on -- and it will be, there will be a wave of crying from owners of non-compliant displays.
It all depends on the connection. Our Stealth DVD Player is Non-HDCP via the dvi output. I also provide a scalable component bnc output. To be honest I see very little difference between the dvi and scalable component. 1080i looks great from both outputs.Alan
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