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Having been involved in the audio hobby/pursuit for close to fifty years I have spent the last 14 learning about and assembling through an evolutionary process a home theater for music and watching my large and growing collection of movies on laserdisc and and DVD. Like many, I started with a stereo system, then graduated to Dolby Pro Logic with its "phantom" center and rear channels, then to a system with a powered sub woofer, then to Dolby and DTS 5.1 surround sound (the .1 is the sub), then most recently to a processor which creates a "phantom" sixth channel in the center rear for Dolby Digital and DTS movie soundtracks for a 6.1 surround arrangement.All this time I have stuck to the conventional wisdom that a "hard" center channel (i.e., a center speaker with its own amplification) is necessary to center both dialog and sound effects, especially for those sitting off to the left or right of the "sweet spot". Occasionally I have read of folks preferring a "phantom" center but I have never tried it. Last night I did. My system automatically shifts the center information to the left and right front speakers when the center channel is switched off; on other systems you may have to manually set the center to "phantom".
I started with a DVD I know well, the 5.1 surround mix on Sting's "Brand New Day" . I switched the center on and off and found that, in every case, the "off" position sounded better (sweeter, clearer, more natural, more coherent). Sting's voice became more "human" and there was a delicacy to instruments that was not there with the center on. I then tried well known surround mixes, some remastered for 5.1 (Ben Hur, Spartacus, 2001) and others originally recorded in Dolby Digital or DTS 5.1, including what in my opinion is the best DVD sound track yet, the DTS mix on "Master and Commander" (again in my set up I'm getting six channels plus the sub woofer). In every single case the "phantom" center won hands down: I could hear subtleties in the mix I never heard before and the whole experience was much closer to the real thing ( again the "human-ness", sweetness, naturalness).
So I set the system permanently that way and now my six channels come from four "real" speakers and two phantom channels, one in the center and one in the center rear. I would be interested in comments from anyone who tries this, including those who prefer a hard center.
BTW my four real speakersd are Magnepan 1.6's on custom sand filled and spiked stands.
Follow Ups:
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Greetings.I too subsist without a center channel.
I use a 42" plasma in a modest-sized room. My goal is always for the sound to match the picture, to adhere to it naturally and believably. That includes having the sound appear proportionate to the image. When I watch those store set-ups with a 42" screen or smaller, flanked by big-assed floor-standing speakers on either side, I usually know it's going to be a discontinuous experience. On goes the ubiquitous Gladiator demo and the sound is HUGE. I'm surrounded by a full-sized army, yet I'm watching these tiny little figures on screen. My brain doesn't put the two together.
To that end I went with some classic Spendor LS 3/5s for my L/R. They do exactly as I expected the little guys to do: voices have that rich, organic, Spendor "rightness" and realism. So much of movies is dialogue and it's great just nailing the midrange to sound so believable, natural and unhyped...yet crystal clear. Voices have just the right fullness and body to sound "person-sized."
Plus, they image really well and maintain good sound off-axis.
I've been planning on buying another Spendor 3/5 for my center, for as coherent a tonal balance as possible. But those little suckers are pricey (especially with the birds eye maple finish I went for), and only sold in pairs.
After living with this set-up and comparing it to many others I'm not so sure I'll bother buying a center channel. Center channels are a trick to get just right, in terms of placement, coherence and placing the sound on the screen. In the vast majority of 5.1 set-ups I find myself aware of the center channel, that the dialogue feels "pulled" to above or below the screen, wherever the center is placed.
Whereas with my Spendors placed a nice distance directly to the sides of my plasma, the phantom image lays smack dab in the middle...laying right "onto" the screen. Dialogue, appears to be coming right from the actor's lips, with no center-channel fake boxiness. Luckily even off axis the sound doesn't stick to the speakers and the Spendors still image enough to maintain a coming-from-the-visuals illusion. So, no center channel needed there as well.
I will be borrowing a 3/5 to try for a center, but given how well my 4.0 set-up has been working compared to so many other types, it'll have to really work and add to the experience.
(BTW, I work in film sound effects editing, and often work in a professionally-installed 5.1 M+K set up at work. However, I still find it does not match the picture/sound seamlessness I experience at home).
Sorry for the ramble.
Rich H.
If you are committed to Magnepans, you are probably going to prefer a phantom center. That's because (1) Maggies dedicated centers are not nearly as outstanding as the rest of the line and (2) none of their regular speakers, afaik, are horizontally symmetrical radiators. In fact, the only all-Maggie system that I've heard, including the one I had in my own room, was the one I heard at the last CES, iirc, where they used large floor-standers all around and a pair of them(!), sharply angled HF-to-HF, in the middle.Kal
This is what I also arrived at. I have a similar system with an Odyssey amp driving Maggie 1.6qr's for the front and a set of MMG's driven by my reciever/decoder for the rears (I've also discovered that driving only a single set of MMG's with a 5 channel reciever improves the sound from it... possibly helps the decoder/preamp stages by making the power supply more stable?) A real center just messed up the great maggie imaging (try that scene in Das Boot where the rivets are richochetting around the sub)Still, there are a lot of movies where surround is just a poorly executed gimmik, which means I still listen to a lot of them in plain stereo.
I fully agree with this poster, and like the poster I've got years of experience as well. My complaint with 5.1 and more systems is a dryness and hardness to the sound. Plus, I get annoyed with the rear channel special effects that often end up distracting from the movie.I have ended up using vintage gear in my best sounding HT system; a two channel setup with four speakers. The mains (phantom center) being classic Bozak 4000a symphonies, the rear (out of phase) Radio Shack LX5 Pros driven by a minty Fisher 500c. It's a small room and I'm 6.5' off a 42" Panny HD panel. DVDs by a Bravo D1 with a DVI connection to the panel.
Movie dialog is clear and I capture adequate spatial effects with the out-of-phase rears. Plus my music sounds wonderful. In fact, just the other night, INHD had the 1970 Who concert on and the big Bozaks and their reference midrange made me feel like I was there!
When seated off-center (not very often, only if we have guests over) the center information may be a little shifted but it's a pretty even spread. The ideal (almost impossible with Maggie's) is to have three identical speakers across the front.
If you want to get really good off-center imaging try tweeters inside and toe them in alot. Not the way I run mine but there was very little loss of center information when I tried it this way a while back.
I have tried the 1.6's with tweeters inboard and prefer them set up th other way. BTW, this is just the opposite of my Maggie MMG's, where I DO prefer them inboard.
I think this is VERY system- and setup-dependant. With the dipole Maggies and decent 'phantoming,' you may very well go beyond what you can get from the very bass-limited CC-3, especially on stereo music sources. Even with good MCH DVD sources, this may be true.OTOH, get rid of the TV and use really full-range speakers and the tables are turned.
Kal
virtually all of the earlier material (Ben Hur, for example) was done in stereo (general release) or surround for major venues with 70mmcapability. Those surround tracks had no center channel.But then theatre horns do voice extremely well.
With horns and planars I generally prefer a phantom centre, with conventional systems a hard centre who's volume may be turned up . . . important as most of the dialogue is there.
Hmmmmm . . . given the inanity of most dialogue these days maybe I'll just skip the centre altogether.
and miss great lines such as "I like you Sulley, I kill you last."HOW WILL WE SURVIVE?!? ;-)
From what I understand, the center channel is used to anchor the dialog for those sitting off-center. If you're in a small room, and sitting within 30deg of center, I think a center does more harm than good. Of course, you lose the ability to 'tweak' the center's sound with delay, loudness, etc.The only comparison I have is that I went from having a 5.1 PSB Stratus setup to a 2ch Dynaudio and movies sound much better.
No not really. You did not mention what you had for a center channel. I doubt that it is another Maggie, as it would block the TV ;-).On older, pre 5.1 material, I usually run it in Stereo, which sounds better. But if you have a center speaker that is in the same league as the others, then it can be a good experience. Problem is that most people (including me) cheap out on the centre. To match what I have in the rest of the system, I would have to spend well over $1000, just on the centre!!
It's a Maggnepan CC-3, their third (and finally successful) attempt at a center which is a good match for other speakers in their line. It is postioned above and behind the TV, in an arc with the right and left front 1.6's. It is powered by the same amplifier (NAD 963) which powers the rest of the system. It is aimed directly at the sweet spot.
You may well have tried this, or space limitations may be an issue, but can you move the centre to the same plane as the fronts?That said, your speakers are good enough that you can get rid of the centre channel. I have heard a 5 channel setup that worked, but the DVD player and processor were VERY expensive. I have also found that multi-channel is much easier to screw up.
Having conducted much experimentation over the years I have always preferred having the "hard" center speaker in an arc with the left and right fronts, that is all three being equi-distant from the sweet spot. I have also fiddled with time delay on the center.After three days with the "phantom" center I still prefer it. And now I have discovered that pure stereo music recordings on lp, cassete tape,laserdisc, and DVD sound very convincing on either Dolby Pro Logic II Music or (even better) DTS ES Music. As you know, these codecs simulate a 6.1 channel mix from plain old stereo. Heretofore I had always preferred stereo music recordings in pure stereo but now with a phanrtom center these matrix codecs are very convincing on stereo movies and, now, on music as well.
Clearly you have tried a lot of different combinations. I don't doubt that your findings of going without a centre is better. I have found the same, especially on older material. I have also experimented with various combinations & I have concluded to get the quality in 5.1 that you can get in 2 channel, you have to spend a LOT MORE money. A good processor is hard to find, even if you spend big bucks.In the end, do what works for you & forget what the "experts" say you should do. It is only by experimenting with your equipment in your room, will you find what works.
Something I have always done. It may be that my conclusion is a function of my room or the Maggie dipoles or the slightly (slightly) different timbre of the CC-3 and the 1.6's (or a combination).Anyway, I convinced a pro audio/video ISF guy, totally convinced of the need for a "hard" center, to experiment with a 'phantom' set up.
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