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Anyone has any experience with how these 2 compare visually and sonically?
Follow Ups:
Hello -The only person of which I know that has lived with both players for any length of time is Michael Fremer. He has published reviews of both players in the Stereophile Guide to Home Theater earlier this year.
To summarize his reviews, he basically states that the Ayre provided the best picture and sound quality of any DVD player he has tested, and goes well beyond mass-market players in both departments. He found the Camelot to come close to the Ayre in both departments, but is not its equal. However, the Camelot is considerably less expensive.
There is a brief mention of the Ayre's performance in the current issue of SGHT. This is found in John Gannon's review of a Seleco front projector. Stereophile Guide to Home Theater will publish a complete follow-up review of the Ayre in the near future, probably either the December or January issue. This will report on the Ayre's performance with different types of displays besides the rear projector that Michael Fremer used.
Ayre has recently upgraded the D-1 to the D-1x, with further improvements to both the audio and video performance. The price is unchanged. The mention of the Ayre in the Seleco review is of the earlier D-1, while the follow-up review will report on the D-1x and the differences between the two versions.
If you need further information, please contact us at the factory. The telephone number is 303-442-7300.
Best regards,
Charles Hansen
Ayre Acoustics, Inc.
The Ayre shows its humble beginnings as a Pioneer transport and has the chroma flaw. It uses the positively regarded Silicon images chipset for de-interlacing.In contrast, the Roundtable begins as a Panasonic DVD player, so has no chroma flaw. It also uses the Silicon Images chipset.
From a deinterlacing perspective, provided the Silicon Images board has the dip switches set correctly, you will see comparable performance.
On a good to great video setup, you'll see the chroma flaw on the Ayre.
Regards,
Hello -The original poster asked, "Anyone has any experience with how these 2 compare visually and sonically?"
The author of this followup, John Kotches of Secrets of Home Theater and High Fidelity, has never used the Ayre. Therefore, he cannot meaningfully address the original poster's question. He has instead made some statements about the Ayre that are partially correct.
The Ayre does, in fact, use a Pioneer transport mechanism as Kotches states. I am unsure as to why he calls this "humble". There are only four major companies (excluding minor companies in China, Korea, and Taiwan) that are capable of producing DVD transports; Sony, Matsushita (Panasonic), Sanyo, and Pioneer.
We chose to use the Pioneer mechanism. Pioneer uses this same basic mechanism in all of their models, from their $200 model (DV-343) to their $6000 model (DV-AX10). It provides excellent performance and is extremely reliable.
Kotches then correctly points out that the MPEG decoder in the Ayre incorporates the "chroma upsampling bug" (as extensively reported on the Secrets to Home Theater and High Fidelity web site). This is also true of the vast majority of all DVD players ever made. He then states, "On a good to great video setup, you'll see the chroma flaw on the Ayre."
However, he forgot to add the qualifier "on certain source material". This "bug" is only visible in scenes with highly saturated colors, especially reds. This situation is most often found in animated features, such as "Toy Story".
We are currently developing a solution for the "chroma upsampling bug" (thanks in large part to the information found on the Secrets to Home Theater and High Fidelity web site). This should be available early next year and will be retrofittable to earlier units, in keeping with our philosophy of providing updates to our equipment. We should have a working prototype of this circuit completed in the next few weeks. I will be extremely interested to see how much actual improvement is realized by correcting this "bug".
To me, one disturbing aspect of Kotches' post is the implication that the performance of a DVD player can be boiled down to its deinterlacing performance and the presence (or absence) of the "chroma upsampling bug". This is emphatically not the case. Please refer to the Ayre web site (www.ayre.com) for additional information on the design features of the Ayre DVD player. These design features produce video (and audio) performance that is unequaled.
As reported in many published magazine reviews world-wide, the Ayre provides visibly superior video performance. I invite anyone interested in high-performance video to visit their local Ayre dealer to find out the differences for themselves. Please contact our factory at 303-442-7300 should you require additional information.
Best regards,
Charles Hansen
Ayre Acoustics, Inc.
Charles,My post was not meant as a dig for your product. I'm sorry you perceived it as such. Many players do have inauspicious beginnings, yours included. I have used the same term to describe some of your competitors products as well, on this and other forums.
Currently many of the best players on the market are utilizing "humble" DVD-ROM drives as transports. My experience says it's much more important what is done with the bits coming off the platter regardless of the mechanism employed.
The same was true in the CD era, many of the best CD players began life as an OEM transport. Some manufacturers did a better job than others in disguising this fact.
I have become much more cognizant of the chroma flaw since I made the switch from RPTV to FPTV. The flaw was barely perceptible from the viewing position in my room on a 55" RPTV. In other words, I had to be looking for the flaw. It is easily perceptible with my relatively modest FP setup. Neither of us mentioned that some people notice the flaw, and others don't. It varies from person to person.
You're right, there is a bit more to video performance than these two areas, and I hope you chose to participate in our next benchmark. I for one think it would be quite interesting to see how your corrected player can perform in an objective comparison with its peers.
To distinguish between the shootout and a benchmark for everyone, the shootout focuses on progressive performance and is a subset of the benchmark.
Regards,
Hello -There is an overwhelming amount of misinformation being presented to the public, both on the internet and in print. It would be impossible to try and correct all of the misinformation. However when that misinformation concerns Ayre products, I often make an attempt to correct it.
Regarding the transport used in the Ayre D-1, we make no secret that it is a Pioneer mechanism. As noted in my previous post, the Pioneer offers excellent performance and superb reliability.
I am still unclear as to why you refer mechanism to this as a "humble" transport with "inauspicious beginnings". Perhaps you could provide some examples of "proud" transports with "auspicious" beginnings.
For example, there is one company that takes a standard transport mechanism (with standard lasers, standard motors, and standard servos) and then adds a metal loading tray. Since the tray doesn't even contact the disc during play, there is no performance advantage whatsoever to be gained from this modification. But perhaps this is what you mean by a "proud" transport.
It is obvious that the DVD player test reports on the "Secrets of Home Theater and High Fidelity" web site are focused on deinterlacing performance and the "chroma upsampling bug". While these are real areas of video performance that should be examined, it must be remembered that in the real world both of these issues manifest themselves only briefly, during specific scenes on certain discs.
In contrast, the Ayre D-1 uses proprietary designs that give visibly improved performance (greater dimensionality, increased resolution, lowered grain and noise, et cetera) during *all* scenes of *all* discs. This leads to greater involvement and enjoyment while watching films. Since the reports that have been published to date on "Secrets of Home Theater and High Fidelity" have not explored this overall performance level, they must be considered incomplete.
A good analogy would be between a high-powered, high-feedback power amplifier designed "by the book" and a low-powered, low-feedback power amplifier from a talented designer with the aid of careful listening tests. The first amplifier may sound grainy and brittle all the time, but never clip, even on loud passages with inefficient speakers. The second amp might experience brief overloads on some discs with some speakers, but provide a beautifully rich and pleasing sound the rest of the time. I know which of those I would prefer to own. But then again, some people think that all amplifiers sound the same...
Of course, the ideal would be to have a high-powered amp that is liquid and involving. And that is why we are developing a solution for the "chroma upsampling bug" that will be retro-fittable to all Ayre DVD players. This will allow the viewer to enjoy superior picture quality of the Ayre D-1 at all times, free from even occasional disruptions of the "chroma upsampling bug" evident on specific scenes from a small minority of discs.
Best regards,
Charles Hansen
Ayre Acoustics, Inc.
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