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a marvelous group of directors.
Cary Grant.
Bogie.
Bette.
Joan.
Jimmy.
Barbara.
Marlon.
Stevens.
Wyler.
Yes, Europe had many marvelous directors and many of them, because of Nazism, ended up here, doing their best work. But what separated Hollywood was its stars. When I think of iconic actors, it's Hollywood, by a long shot.
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" Once this was all Black Plasma and Imagination." -Michael McClure
fd
Definitely - he was a genuine Hollywood Star (and a damn good actor) ... just...
an English actor at the top of a list of Ever So American Hollywood Stars seems
... ironic.
As you imply (and as we know) many non-Americans came here and helped create and
form a vision of America as defined, composed and viewed through the lens of Hollywood.
" Once this was all Black Plasma and Imagination." -Michael McClure
The old way was the "studio system" of systematically building box office draws and tailoring scripts and vehicles to fit their personalities. Old movies do not properly reflect reality and often required a lot of range from the leads. Did John Wayne ever really act? Bogie the same?
Grits: Keep'in it classy in the kitchen.
on whether you started out with Hollywood films or films from some other source. For people born and living in non-English speaking countries with strong cinema traditions of their own, they aren't going to think first of Hollywood when they think of iconic actors and directors.
Hell, even the British are likely to be prone to think of their own actors and directors rather than Hollywood given the strength of their cinema industry at the time of the actors you named, and the British actually speak English, not american.
Here in Australia we copped both Hollywood and Pinewood, and probably got Pinewood in a much larger dose than you did in the US so our lists would tend to include some British actors as well as the Hollywood ones.
This sort of list is always culture dependent and there are other cultures besides US american. Some are even better than US american.
David Aiken
step, at least for boomers.
Cary Grant. Humphrey Bogart. John Wayne. Gary Cooper. Jimmy Stewart. Fred Astaire. James Dean.
Restricting myself to those few, who were JUST as famous around the world as in their own country. You do know that European directors and actors copied from them? Look at Godard's, "Breathless." Belmondo's character shamelessly mimics Bogart, as did many French gangster actors.
Certainly, some European actors became famous, but we're talking iconic stars, world-wide, aren't we?
Gabin. Huge in France, virtually unknown unless to serious film connoisseurs outside of it.
Burton (largely because of his American films) and several others are stars, but of a decidedly lesser magnitude.
I appreciate European film and actors as much as American ones, but the nod goes to Americans for star quality and quantity (we poached talent from Europe, yes, but they became great here, with a few exceptions).
I am a great fan of Aussie actors and directors, btw....
If you're in a non-English speaking country with a strong cinema industry of its own, you're going to see far more of those films than you are going to see Hollywood films. Are your icons really going to be the same as those of someone living in the US?
Are you going to get the full impact of Bogie or Davis, to name 2 actors with very good vocal delivery, if you're listening to a dubbed soundtrack, or even if you're listening to the english soundtrack and relying on the subtitles because you don't understand english?
Can native english speakers who don't understand French or Italian, for example, ever get the full impact of great French or Italian actors if they need to rely on dubbed soundtracks or subtitles? I don't think so, and I do think that will adversely affect their judgement of the greatness of those actors.
I don't believe you can expect everyone to agree to your proposition. Linguistic and cultural differences are unavoidable and will inevitably affect people's assessment of who qualifies as a great iconic actor. There are as many, or probably more, such actors outside Hollywood as there are inside it given the size of the many strong national cinema industries around the world and the proportion of Hollywood films included in anyone's total film watching record is going to vary around the world depending on location.
Given that more people live outside the US than inside it, and that the total population of those countries outside the US with strong cinema industries exceeds the total population of the US, then I believe that on a world wide basis more people will disagree with your proposition that Hollywood has a stranglehold on iconic actors than will agree with it.
David Aiken
the American star factory died.
From experience, I can tell you that in S. America, the American film industry stars, even though Brazil and Argentina had many of their own, shone far brighter.
At any time during the 20th century, you could go to an Italian city and mention a number of American actors and they would be known and beloved. Outside of a few sex bombs, Lolabrigida and Loren, the same wouldn't happen here. Same in France. England would be a bit different because of the cross-pollenation.
Now that I think of it, however, American blockbuster films still outperform most native films in most countries. Ahnie Terminator films; the Batmans; Spidermans. I don't know if the actors, outside of the Gov, are very well known, but the films are. The Rambo films also were world-wide sensations as were the Die Hard ones.
Nicholson, Pacino and DeNiro were not honed and polished by the studio system but became stars during the "second golden age" of Hollywood when the young lions - Scorsese, Cappola et al - were breaking out using studio financing but in essence and style were "independent" filmmakers.
These directors were influenced by the Europeans (ahem), especially French new wave and Italian neo- realists, as well as classic American films.
The above actors were very much in the anti-hero mode.
Dustin and Beatty, too....
And I'm sure you know the French and Italian auteurs heavily were influenced by American directors and films.
I just don't know how could anyone consider that one-trick pony a good actor. Depardieu, OTOH, has not been just super-prolific, he gave us some truly fine acting.
...Josephson, Scofield, to name just a few. European cinema was and still is incredibly rich in stars.
Edits: 01/22/11
Or was it Ace Ventura? But he wasn't European, or even a real person.
We'll have to agree to disagree about global warming until the next global cooling scare comes along
Sophia!
.
fsd
But this is one of those threads where a participant can't offer anything besides his personal feelings, so anything goes. I mostly disagreed with your original premise, but since neither you nor I have the Star Index Meter, what's the point? Just to mention some familiar names? Kinda "Gassman is bigger than Brando, but Brando is fatter than Ventura and Philipe together?"
Nice to see the names we love mentioned... though.
women!
I'm sure you've seen Vittorio G in Dino Risi's, "Il Sorpasso," I seem to remember discussing it? I believe the gorgeous feline was Catherine Spaak.
...reminded me of another great Gassman film - Profumo di Donna.
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