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In Reply to: RE: so Wikipedia is the unchallenged source of all historical knowledge? posted by groovenoter on June 26, 2007 at 22:49:57
The issue is not the superiority of the ground troops. The issue is the superiority of the air force. I posited that the Soviet air force was no match for the U.S. and the British air forces. Particularly if they are combined.
Let's look at what happened in Japan. The U.S. planned a ground invasion of Japan, and the generals determined there was only one place on the island that enough ground troops could land for an invasion of Japan. For some unexplained reason, prior to the planned invasion, Japan fortified that area (I believe it was on the Southwest corner of the island) prior to the invasion. At that point, the generals went back to Truman, informed him of the movement, and determined that to land in that area with the fortified troops would now cause many times the losses of life which were lost on Normandy.
Truman then determined that the cost of American life was too high, and decided to drop the bomb. Relevance? Japan's location and troop strenghts precluded an invasion. But there were other ways to skin the cat. Drop the bomb. All the troop strength in the world would not counteract the effect of such a device. The bomb forced Japan to capitulate. I doubt they knew how many devices the U.S. had - they only knew that IF the U.S. had another, there was no way for them to prevent another bomb because of the U.S.s superior air force and navy.
Now, move to Europe. While a ground invasion against the Soviets would have been bloody as hell, and victory questionable, the Soviets know that the U.S. has a techonology they do not possess, and, because of a superior navy, a means of delivery they do not possess. Let's assume another bomb is in the offing. Given the U.S. and British superiority in the sky and on the water, I postulate there is not much the Soviets could have done to prevent the U.S. dropping one on Moscow. If they had the will. Which Truman did not.
At the end of the day, the Soviets were handed Eastern Block countries as a spoil of war - hey they lost a lot, let's give them some countries in return. Nobody has yet to comment on whether a country should be rewarded in such a fashion.
"PS BTW re Soviet air power, I think the air ace with highest numbers of kills in aerial combat on all sides, in all theatres of WW2, is a Soviet fighter pilot. Need to check on this. "
Sure. Kobe Bryant scores a ton of points. Where are the Lakers?
Follow Ups:
American/British air power at the end of the war ? Upon what basis do you make this assessment ? Granted instead of fighting Luftwaffe aircraft, the Soviet Union would be engaging P51s and B-17s. If Soviet fighter aircraft outnumbered their Allie counterparts 10:1, there would have been zero chance of B29s with nukes getting anywhere near Warsaw, let alone Moscow. Come back to us when you've crunched the numbers.
It's all moot anyway, there wasn't a fight.
My kids can count. They can't reason. Most of the time, reasoning is more important. So here goes. The Soviet air force, at the beginning of the war, was years behind technologically. At least according to Stalin. The U.S. gave the S.U. aircraft under the Lend-lease. Those are facts. If the Soviet air force was all that, no need for Stalin's statement, and no need for loaners. Therefore, the air force was lacking. If there is no air force to speak of, there are no pilots to speak of, because, well, on what do they train? That is called reasoning.
Consequently, at the beginning of the war, the S.U. air force is not equivalent to the U.S. and Britain air force. Britain gave the Luftwaffe more than it could handle in the Battle of Britain. Remember, the Luftwaffe, at the beginning of the battle with the S.U., gave the S.U. heavy losses. That is fact. Britain's air force gave the Luftwaffe heavy losses. That is fact. Consequently, the Royal Air Force was better than the Soviet air force. That is reasoning. Same thing that tells me San Antonio is a better team than Detroit, though they never faced each other in the finals.
Both the Royal and U.S. Air forces were responsible for putting the final nails in the Luftwaffe, which is fact. Consequently, their air forces were superior to the Luftwaffe, which were also superior to the S.U. air force, which had been defeated by the Luftwaffe. Reasoning.
After the Luftwaffe were neutralized, the S.U. built a lot of planes. Fact. However, they had not many experienced pilots, because their air force was not a factor during the war, as the Luftwaffe were largely neutralized when they re-built their air force, and, to the best of my knowledge, they never fought the Japanese, so there was little combat experience. As opposed the Britain and the U.S. Reasoning.
I could likely cite the numbers of planes each side owned, but how to quantify the combined years of combat experience of their respective pilots? Flight time? Kills? Skill? You may be the same person who looks at the U.S. News and World Report's edition on colleges, finds the college with the most volumes in the library, and concludes that is the best college. Crunching numbers are easy. Thinking is difficult because it requires real work. Get back to me when you are ready to think instead of regurgitate.
"It's all moot anyway, there wasn't a fight."
Then why are you posting?
s
The Soviets had built a LOT of airplanes to provide tactical support for ground operations on the Eastern front. And dont' discount the expertise and experience of those who flew those airplanes against the Luftwaffe for years.
You continue to discount the magnitude of the battles on the Eastern front; I wouldn't be so quick to totally dismiss Soviet Air capabilities vs. the Allies. Necessity drove large improvements in Soviet miliary aircraft capabilities during WWII. Even today, MIGs and SUs are still some of the best combat airframes even today. The US only edge is in Stealth and electronics technologies.
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