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208.58.2.83
In Reply to: RE: Sicko...Moore's best film... posted by RGA on July 12, 2007 at 16:40:50
And he extolls Cuba.
Very handy for a propagandist, that name, Slovenia, so reminiscent of "slovenly", "slob", etc.
But Michael Moore, the fiction filmmaker, is a highly dishonest man. Just for a moment take a detour into Christopher Hitchins' mind:
With Michael Moore's Fahrenheit 9/11, however, an entirely new note has been struck. Here we glimpse a possible fusion between the turgid routines of MoveOn.org and the filmic standards, if not exactly the filmic skills, of Sergei Eisenstein or Leni Riefenstahl.
To describe this film as dishonest and demagogic would almost be to promote those terms to the level of respectability.
Indeed. Now, back to that UN list.
A quick study of the situation reveals that their rankings are more-or-less determined by a populace's insurance coverage, the assumption being that without "insurance", whether national or private, there is little or no care:One key recommendation from the report is for countries to extend health insurance to as large a percentage of the population as possible.
A lesser-regarded factor is "responsiveness", and here we read: The nations with the most responsive health systems are the United States, Switzerland, Luxembourg, Denmark, Germany, Japan, Canada, Norway, Netherlands and Sweden.
But all is wonderful in that beautiful communist isle of Cuba, medi-wise, one gathers. Cuba is a shining star just south of big bad capitalist America. But where on the UN's list does Cuba appear? Does Michael Moore, that big fat liar, ever tell you?
Ladies and gentlemen, Cuba ranks... 39th!
clark
Follow Ups:
There was one nincompoop who would call Moore LyingMikey on Outside. For three years I chased his ass, saying "Post the falsehood" Like yourself, he never actually found one, but he heard that other people may have heard about one from someonewho might have known something.
It is CNN who said that Michael Moore Ignored that and did not tell us. I guess you did not see Gupta the next day apologize to Moore about misquoting the numbers - He also apologized to Moore.
Gupta and CNN also agreed with Moore that on the whole the film is correct and that the US health care system is clearly broken. Gupta argued that wait times were better in the US especially elective surgery - Moore replied that that's easy to do when unlike in socialized countries they don't ignore 1/4 the population. The line is faster when 47 million people are removed from the line. Gupta had to sheepishly agree.
As a Canadian I don't have to worry about a single medical cost save some drugs (but only if I am earning enough to pay for them).
The argument is that Canada is taxed to death. Well that depends on what one views as taxed to death. Each Province is slightly different. There is a 7% tax on all Goods and Services (but not food or clothes and supplies for children). Then there is an additional 7 or 8% provincial tax on most goods. There is no provincial tax in the oil rich province of Alberta.
Federal Income tax is 15.25% on people earning less than $37,000.00 but the first ~$9,000.00 is tax exempt. From $37k - $73k the tax rate is around 22%. From $72-$120k is 26%, more than $118k it is 29%
Speaking to an American from Montana the rates are very similar except that he gets no medical.
When a man who loses two fingers has to choose which finger to sew back on "I'm sorry sir but your index finger will cost you $12,000.00 and your middle finger will cost $60,000.00 shall we do the operation?" "he could only afford the $12,000 so they threw the other finger in the trash bin."
Sorry but that is appalling to me. I can't imagine how a doctor can live with himself/herself in such an idiotic system.
And even Americans must know how morally and ethically bankrupt the drug industry is. I mean in Canada and American can come across the border and buy the same drugs at pennies on the dollar. Meanwhile George W and his cronies will say that those Drugs are not FDA or AMA approved. Since the drugs were made in the States to start with that is a ludicrous LIE. And even if the drug was made in Canada - we have some of the finest technology and research centers in the world - so if the drug was made in Canada they would be every bit as safe and probably more-so than ones made in the U.S. because they would be made as curatives not as dependent life long symptom reducers to increase profits for the big drug companies.
My wife and myself pay about 35% total income/SS... taxes, than we "chose" to pay extra 10% for retirement since SS will not be able to pay for food, that we have to pay about $250 per month insurance (and we are lucky that we have it and that is fairy cheap since my wife works for local government), plus few thousands out of pocket health related expenses.
Added, it is at least equal and probably more than Europeans and Canadians pay but they have (almost) total free health coverage, decent pensions and retiree health insurance, free good schools, large decent public transportation systems, affordable child and elderly care...
When, and if, I ever retire I will have to pay for health insurance and medications or at least lions portion of it, will have to add to pension from my savings etc. (if stock marked does not loose my money...). Primary and secondary schools suck although we pay quite a bit in property taxes. University you have to pay (and unfortunately have to say that quality is declining rapidly), public transportation is barely hanging on (and Chicago has one of the best in US), roads look more like battlefield.
Have to say, public libraries are free and great, at least in Chicago.
SOme people say they run 30K per year. They're not free in Canada but the tuition is about $2,000.00 for a 5 course load with maybe another $400.00 in books - that's about $5000.00 a year.
Needless to say that being about 3 hours from downtown Seattle we had a lot of Americans taking courses at my University. And they don't get the subsidized rate.
I just can't believe seniors have to pay so much...in Canada you still pay for some drugs - so there is an Americanization beginning to happen.
The nurses union gave out 1500 tickets to nurses to see the film - an attempt to get people in Canada to NOT vote for right wing agendas to Americanize it. Moore heard about it and paid the union for the tickets.
> > > "But Michael Moore, the fiction filmmaker, is a highly dishonest man. Just for a moment take a detour into Christopher Hitchins' mind:" < < <
I find it amusing that YOU extoll the virtues of Christopher Hitchens' "honest" mind when expressing an opinion on Fahrenheit 911, but one has to wonder if you share the inherent honesty of his views on a variety of other subjects. For instance, what is your opinion of his exposing the phoniness of religion and the depiction of Mother Theresa as a con artist who shilled for the Catholic church at the expense of those she claimed to be helping?
Do you agree with Hitchens on that topic? If so, fine (I probably have less problem with CH's views on religion than you), but as you're living in uber-Catholic Boston maybe you should read Hitchens' book Missionary Position before relying on him for a profound quote. ;0)
Christopher Hitchen's usually makes his points in an unflinching manner, but coming from the shock journalism school of aggressive reporting his biases leave little wiggle room. Furthermore, when he makes a mistake, he usually makes a whopper and he's loathe to admit it. Note: To make a bad pun, I think that's called "Hitchin' your cart to the wrong horse"!
As a staunch Bush war supporter from the outset he's been back peddling for years trying to defend his position in the face of mounting opposition to that misguided, mishandled war. Clearly, Hitchens opinion of Fahrenheit 911 should be taken in this light and with a large grain of salt.
> > > "But all is wonderful in that beautiful communist isle of Cuba, medi-wise, one gathers. Cuba is a shining star just south of big bad capitalist America. But where on the UN's list does Cuba appear? Does Michael Moore, that big fat liar, ever tell you?" < < <
Maybe you need to LISTEN to what Moore has said before spouting off insults and chauvinistic diatribes. Michael Moore stated emphatically that his film is an effort to point out what works and what doesn't. He made clear in a CNN interview that Sicko isn't aimed at comparing every good and bad aspect of every system, but rather an attempt to point out the best elements of health care from other systems and the worst elements in our's, the idea being to start a serious discussion of health care reform.
To be fair, we BOTH should SEE this film before commenting on it's merits, but if the general consensus is accurate, then Moore's approach should be lauded because what he has done is shine a beacon on the serious problem of means testing quality health care in this country. If the U.S. ends up with a broken system where essential health care is only provided to those who can afford high premiums and everyone else receives substandard care, then we'll lose the battle to nations with more compassionate, universal systems of care for their citizens.
AuPh
t
and all that, but ummm, it seems he hasn't done.. any.. editing..sir..I so hate to disturb you with another "fact", but, anyway, I'll let you get back to what ever you're doing behind your desk, sir, sorry, I'll be going now....
I so hate to disturb you with another *actual* fact. (Where do you get *your* "facts"? From Rush Limbaugh? Bwahahahahahaha!)
Would you like to see his earlier version? Glad to post!
In fact I have a slew of AP's numerous edited versions, which roll in like the tide until it stops. I have learned to wait a couple of days until the cycle is complete.
Would you like to see them too? Would it help you? Would it stop you?
clark
seriously. You are creeping me out
s
...and it's almost always on the ENTER key. ;0)
AuPh
Well, yeah, sure, send it over. If you're right, I'll apologize, and know, in the future, that the notation given at the bottom of the posts giving the date of any edits, is fallible. Or, I suppose you might have meant that he deleted a post, and rewrote it, which can certainly be called 'editing'. Either way, I'm not afraid to admit I was wrong.
However, he seems to have (now? at long last?) a good, solid, workable post, waiting for your reply and learned argument. I anxiously await.
.
.
.
The first round (and this guy often produces three or four -- I have those too, since you seem so very interested).
Hope this will wake you up in time for work.
Do NOT respond to this email.
It is being forwarded to you per your request by the Asylum.
http://www.VideoAsylum.com/films/messages/5/56561.html
Posted by Audiophilander
Baloney! Once again you demonstrate that you haven't done your homework.
------------------------------
> > > "But Michael Moore, the fiction filmmaker, is a highly dishonest man.
Just for a moment take a detour into Christopher Hitchins' mind:" < < <
I find it amusing that YOU extoll the virtues of Christopher Hitchens'
"honest" mind when expressing an opinion on Fahrenheit 911, but one has to
wonder if you share the inherent honesty of his views on a variety of other
subjects. For instance, what is your opinion of his exposing the phoniness
of religion and the depiction of Mother Theresa as a con artist who shilled
for the Catholic church at the expense of those she claimed to be helping?
Do you agree with Hitchens on that topic? If so, fine (I probably have less
problem with CH's views on religion than you), but as you're living in
uber-Catholic Boston maybe you should read Hitchens' book Missionary
Position before relying on him for a profound quote. ;0)
While Christopher Hitchen's usually makes his points in a profound
unflinching manner, but coming from the shock journalism school of
aggressive reporting his biases leave little wiggle room. Furthermore,
when he makes a mistake, he usually makes a whopper and he's loathe to
admit it. Note: To make a bad pun, I think that's called "Hitchin' your
cart to the wrong horse"!
As a staunch Bush war supporter from the outset he's been back peddling for
years trying to defend his position in the face of mounting opposition to
that misguided, mishandled war. Clearly, Hitchens opinion of Fahrenheit
911 should be taken in this light and with a large grain of salt.
> > > "But all is wonderful in that beautiful communist isle of Cuba,
medi-wise, one gathers. Cuba is a shining star just south of big bad
capitalist America. But where on the UN's list does Cuba appear? Does
Michael Moore, that big fat liar, ever tell you?" < < <
Maybe you need to LISTEN to what Moore has said before spouting off insults
and chauvinistic diatribes. Michael Moore stated emphatically that his
film is an effort to point out what works and what doesn't. He made clear
in a CNN interview that Sicko isn't aimed at comparing every good and bad
aspect of every system, but rather an attempt to point out the best
elements of health care from other systems and the worst elements in our's,
the idea being to start a serious discussion of health care reform.
To be fair, we BOTH should see this film before commenting on it's merits,
but if the general consensus is accurate, then Moore's approach should be
lauded because what he has done is shine a beacon on the serious problem of
means testing quality health care in this country. If the U.S. ends up
with a broken system where essential health care is only provided to those
who can afford high premiums and everyone else receives substandard care,
then we'll lose the battle to nations with more compassionate, universal
systems of care for their citizens.
AuPh
you might want to consider doing it more.
He doesn't like having his base opinions dissolved by acidic facts. :o)
AuPh
The US 37th/Cuba 39th issue has, by now, been done to the point of over-saturation, clarkjohnsen, so your big 'gotcha' punchline is a bit time-worn.Oddly, if you would actually see the film, you might note that he clearly does show the correct rankings-even though where we stand on the list relative to Cuba isn't germane to the point he's trying to make. He at no time says Cuba's health care system is superior to ours, only that there are facets of their system that clearly are better. I know, facts can be troubling, especially when they don't coincide with your political view. You might look to the current administration for ways to handle that pesky little problem.
And if your dramatic closing sentence makes you feel smug because our health-care system is rated two places higher than friggin' Cuba, you might want to lay off that hillbilly heroin that seems to be so popular with the arch-conservative crowd.
nt
...from the Boston Globe?
"As filmmaking, the disappointment is that it manages only C-level vision."
And you're the guy whose "unambitious" (the Globe again) product permits his cheap-shot "Rush Limbaugh" remarks? Who can't even differentiate a few sidebar remarks from actually "reviewing a film"?
By God I believe you are!
Quite the little heel-nipper too, I might add. What's your breed?
clark
How come no follow up for my answer to your attempted smear of my film?
Sorry-don't really see how this is a "cheap shot". Rather than post a lengthy list of all the major mediafat-ass, drug addicted, hypocritical blowhardsconservative commentators, I simply used the name of the most famous one to illustrate how, as I wrote above, they're using the 37/39 'controversy' to try to deemphasize the points Moore is making in this movie. You can supplant Rush's name with any other of your choosing, but the fact remains-it's not only no controversy, it's not even true.
"Who can't even differentiate a few sidebar remarks from actually "reviewing a film"?
Though you didn't call out in your subject header that you were 'reviewing' Sicko , you used the thread of a review, (mistaken) statements from the film, and other's comments about previous Moore films to add emphasis to the (very dramatic, by the way) Big Finish concerning the veracity of the film Sicko. For me, that's close enough, on this little blogosphere, to call it a review. Your definition may differ, but the point remains-see the actual movie before commenting. Then, at least, your words will have the weight of true criticism, as opposed to the knee-jerk, don't-have-to-see-it-cause-I've-heard-about-it bombast of, say, the Christian Coalition.
And btw, I'd love to have credit for any documentary film, even if it (only) received a 'C' from the 'Globe. Nice work Elliot.
Sorry, Clark, but you kinda walked into this one...And yes, the Boston Globe didn't like the film and although it was "recommended" by the NY Times they were also rather critical of it. Oh, and by the way, my hometown paper, The Washington Post, also gave it a bit of a thumbs down.
On the other hand it received a large number of professional rave reviews, has a "Fresh" rating on Rotten Tomatoes, and...
It was picked up for national distribution by Miramax, opened in over 70 cities nationwide, won over 15 festival awards, a National Emmy nomination, a Christopher Award (for creative work that "affirms the highest values of the Human Spirit), and was named "One of the Five Best Documentaries of 2004" by the National Board of Review of Motion Pictures." In the Palm Springs Film Festival in which appeared all five of that year's academy award feature doc nominees, my film was given the "Audience Award for Best Documentary Feature." It also played in heavy rotation on HBO for a year which means people wanted to see it.
Finally, if you check out the Amazon viewer ratings you will encounter a film which has, to date, received 42 viewer reviews. There was one 4-star review that called it "inspiring" and "a great documentary," and ALL the rest are 5-star reviews.
So, I don't have any problem taking the bad reviews along with the good...and I guess a lot depends on which review you look at!
Elliot
What film did you make? I don't come here a whole bunch.
"Paper Clips."
My wife who is a nurturing and altruistic soul also connected with Paper Clips.
No pun intended there I assure you.
Cheers,
J.B.
No film in history is going to be loved by all. Moore's films have a political viewpoint and anytime that happens you will have reviewers with a different political view that will very likely will give a negative review. Movie critics are not exactly up to the standard of journalists and that's not saying much as the journalists if Sanjay Gupta is a good representative are pretty biased paid off individuals. Film critics are often paid off and so why would it be any different for political reviews.
Documentaries like Hostory books present a writer/director's bias. Moore makes no pretense for his film - he is telling one side - his side in order to combat the hundreds of millions spent on the other side. I amazed the other side even has a supporter.
I am not sure I get the argument FOR having a paid insurance private medical HMO?
The arguments I hear make absolutely no sense. You get to pick your doctor or hospital? But we get to that in Canada and it's free. And the word free is slippery for Americans to understand because we are taxed but does it not make a bit more sense to pay a bit higher tax to hedge your bets? I mean basically the higher tax is a safety net so that you when your wife or yourself has a heart attack and the HMO tells you that you need $487,000.00 for the medical bills you don;t suddenly find yourself taking out three mortgages and selling your car and asking the kids to support you.
The taxes may cost a couple grand a year more but the gamble is not worth it. It's like a warranty on your life. It's about the only warranty in the world worth paying for. But for some reason people think it's more important for doctors to own three homes 7 cars and 19 televisions and in order for that to happen the balance scale has to hit many other people in a negative way to the other extreme.
"you might want to lay off that hillbilly heroin that seems to be so popular with the arch-conservative crowd."
Even I'm embarrassed for you.
clark
to stay close to a Young Gentleman, whose Strong Arms might prevent Injury from your Swoon.
Of course, no comment on the post itself, nor explanation for your incorrect 'fact-finding', just the usual laughable attempt at sly repartee. If only your writing skills matched your arrogant pomposity.
However, I can celebrate the fact that your eminence deigned to provide me with an entire line of body text , rather than the normal upturned nose, a haughty sniff, and an /nt/. I now know the pride felt by those on Nixon's enemies list.
vaya con dios
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