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In Reply to: RE: A really terrible film that has no courage. The woman falls in love posted by tinear on November 08, 2007 at 16:43:39
Rather than discuss the film, you would prefer to discuss the film's content. Okay. Fine. First, let's begin with the premise that the film is based upon real events. So, are you suggesting that the apparent fact that the heroine fell in love with a Nazi SS officer was not true? Are you suggesting that she dreamed the entire thing up, because, well, she would never let herself fall in love with an SS officer? Are you suggesting that her falling in love never happened, that this was a screenwriter's fantasy, designed to make the film more "exciting?" Odd. Since you seemed to advocate the very same thing only a few posts below.
So, I am not sure what you mean by courage, if the film merely recounts the events that took place. Indeed, it would seem, to you, that the film was really courageous, in that it humanized an SS officer. Certainly, contrary to popular prejudice. Having written that, the film clearly takes a position on the kid glove treatment of certain Nazis after the fall of the Third Reich.
Now, try to follow this analysis. If it really happened, and she really fell in love with an SS officer, because, well, sometimes love is not planned, and just happens. Maybe you married for a practical reason like money, so that you could wile away your days in bliss watching films in between trips to the refrigerator. But maybe, despite her better judgment, she lost control. Who knows? Let's assume that this really happened. Explain how that is the fault of the film, if the film merely recounts the events?
"I didn't mean sending off those hundreds to the ovens! I didn't really enjoy torturing, either!"
Did you know that a very small percentage of German military were actually Nazis? Sort of like our own military. Some are Democrats, some Republicans. Do you know the political persuasion of the soldiers that exterminated villages in Vietnam?
Point is that, while it is easy to assume he was a member of the Nazis party, he was not necessarily a member of the Nazis party. How do you know he sent anyone to the gas chambers? Did every soldier or police officer in Germany at that time send people to the gas chamber? And let's not forget that the hero of the fatherland, Rommel, who was not a member of the Nazi party, but directed killing in Germany's name, eventually attempted to assassinate Hitler, a crime for which he was quietly executed, so as not to alert the German people that Rommel, their hero, was eventually opposed to Hitler. Is it therefore so crazy to think that this officer, at some point, saw the writing on the wall, that the sins of the fatherland should stop? Hardly.
If you going to criticize the content of a film, at least do so from an educated perspective.
Follow Ups:
The film is a travesty because, to keep the female character from being the reprehensible pig she is, the writers' tried to portray an SS TOP OFFICER (just so you don't miss it I raised the caps) as a sympathetic figure transformed by love.
Believe what you will.
Yes, "based on a true story," Hitler was a dog-loving, woman-loving, warm-hearted little fellow who suffered terribly from his WWI injuries.
Go cuddle your Adolph doll.
:-)
"to keep the female character from being the reprehensible pig she is"
That's the shittiest attitude toward women and humanity I have heard outside of the Christian Right.
Ingmar Bergman was driven by trying to understand the misogyny in society, why this hatred of women? But I guess that's nothing for you.
You do better staying away from European cinema and sticking to the simple-minded world of provincial Hollywood.
Her character is a reprehensible pig.
Your logic implies you think she stands for all women, everywhere.
Lie down, rest, and hope you feel better in a few hours.
I should apologize for your wretched, simple-minded view on humans?
I find you a waste of time
asd
...The movie is a lame fantasy-like most movies. And your question...
"Did you know that a very small percentage of German military were actually Nazis?"
...Is disingenuous at best. Are you joking? In the context of this movie, the character is a member of the SS, not an average Joe. If you were in the SS, you were likely to be the most enthusiastic ideologues of the Nazi party. Trying to compare political affiliation of the average German soldier, to the members of the SS, is just flat out wrong. They should hang your post in the Isolation Ward.
I sense confusion. I'll expound. I understand that members of the SS were, as rule, members of the Nazi party. But your post assumes that everyone who was a member of the Nazi party were "believers." I have no doubt that there were members of the SS who became members because it was a way for them to move up into German society, or the ranks of the German government. Those who believed that the persecution of the Jews and other undesirables was wrong, but their own desire for power, prestige, etc. outweighed their conscience. Although different in scale, Dennis Kucinich has displayed the same moral relativity: a life long opponent of Abortion, he suddenly became pro-choice when running for Presidenct. Or Romney, a longtime pro-choice advocate, who becomes opposed to abortion when running for President. They put aside their moral beliefs when it became expedient to do so.
Now, to this character. Now, let's look at some facts, which we will assume are true. Upon finding out she is Jewish, he does not turn her in. He negotiates with the resistance to prevent the deaths of prisoners, at the risk of execution, things a "true believer" would not do. Is it not possible that the SS officer was not a real advocate of murdering innocent people, but, as long as it appeared the Germans would win the war, he condoned that activity, but that when defeat was imminent, he began to feel more comfortable differing with the regime?
Those are certainly potential facts. And facts have no value, in and of themselves, independent on the value people place on them. The film merely recites those facts. Why get your panties up in a bunch because the film merely recites the facts. Neither the film, nor I, placed any value upon the facts. You seem uncomfortable accepting facts that are not in your world view. All Nazis are bad. They all did the same bad things. For all the same reasons.
So, what is the ultimate value of those facts? My personal take, which I would have at least appreciated a request for before you launch into a mindless tirade, is this: He went along with the Nazis, and probably called himself a Nazis, because it was expedient for him to do so. He was complicit in the murder of people. For that, he should have been executed along with the rest of them, because, murder is murder, whether it was because of prejudice or because he wanted a nice office. The allies would likely have executed him (although I find it ironic that the death penaly opponents here are the first to call for their execution.)
But these values do not change the facts that this SS officer had, for lack of a better word, a change of heart. I think your hatred has blinded you to the real possibility that such a conversion is possible, and confused for you the distinction between what happened, and whether such a conversion changes the results. I think the conversion is certainly possible. I do not think it should change the penalty.
As to the difference between a German soldier and a SS officer, do you think that the recipient of the bullet in the brain, or their respective family members, really gives two shits about whether one was a Nazis and the other not? Perhaps you are the one in need of some sensitivity training.
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