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In Reply to: RE: Get dictionary, look up, "ironic." nt posted by jamesgarvin on January 04, 2008 at 09:15:23
Irony: Eastwood is the hero yet he is as evil, as murderous, as criminal as many of the "villains."
Eastwood, and by extention, Leone knows that good vs. evil is not absolute, as had been the common, much-lauded principle of the heavily praised, typical Western.
So we have both story and protagonist aware that the "truth" actually is not so.
All of this, of course, hardly is a shock to anyone with some film knowledge. Leone merely was creating a noir-ish lead in his Westerns.
If one wishes to see realism, Huston is the one to which to turn.
"The Treasure of the Sierra Madre" was groundbreaking long before Eastwood was beginning his "Rawhide" years.
Leone's films are almost cartoonish. One man shooting down half a dozen experienced gunmen? Many times?
Leone was having fun and it would probably exasperate him to be so misunderstood.
Follow Ups:
None of what you wrote has anything to do with "irony", at least using the definition that educated people in the english speaking world use. I assume you know the definition of hypocrisy? Assuming, for a moment, the truth of your arguments relative to Eastwood in GB&U, you criticize Leone for making this evil man the hero. Yet, here many times, you have praised Tarantino for making a hero of Jackson in Pulp Fiction, a man who spends a film killing people in cold blood, all the while quoting Biblical verses prior to his mindless killing, all performed for a underworld criminal. Think those scared shitless lily white suburban youths deserved to be gunned down, defenseless? At least Leone had the courtesy to put guns in the dead characters hands. This is the problem with not fully forming an opinion, and sticking to it.I know you like Unforgiven. Would a guy that has spent his life as a ruthless, drunken killer, who abandons his children in the middle of nowehere to collect a payday in order to kill some overeager cowboys, one of whom did nothing more than be in the wrong place with the wrong compadre, qualify as evil? And then, in a climax or realism, Clint cleans out an entire bar of armed men, rides off into the dark, rainy night, never to be heard from again. Perhaps the law should have organized the same posse that tracked down Billie the Kid. Then again, I would not imagine a man traveling with two small children on the open prairie would be too hard to find. Is that what you mean by "ironic vision."
On the other hand, how was Eastwood as villanous, or murderous, as the other characters in GB&U? Van Cleef, by my memory, kills the first man on the range, his wife, and his young son. Why? He was hired to kill the guy. I guess the wife and young son were freebies. He then kills the man who originally hired him, claiming the first guy he killed, and from whom he stole money after killing him, hired him to kill the second guy. At least he had the courtesy of putting a pillow in front of his face prior to blowing his head off. Then he has Tuco beaten within an inch of his life, a practice that he apparently employed on numerous occasions while wearing a military uniform. Maybe that is what you meant?
On the other hand, in GB&U, Eastwood kills, who exactly? He kills some of the men that Van Cleef send to hunt for him. And then, who? Van Cleef. I know when I ask you for examples you will not provide any, which is why I ask you for them. Your facts are completely wrong. On the other hand, if you want to take another stab at providing facts to support your argument, have at it.
What I have shown you, with facts, is that your "truth" is not truth, which, in turn, makes your statement of "ironic vision" wrong. But again, if you want to take another stab at demonstrating why Eastwood is as murderous as Van Cleef, go ahead. I never saw Rawhide, so maybe you are including Clint's body count from that series. Again, though, under your tortured definition of "ironic vision", which is really just gobblygook, Tarantino would more than apply.
Then again, as another poster pointed out, Tarantino lists GB&U as one of the three best directed films of all time. Tarantino, Tin. Tarantino, Tin. Hmm.
"If one wishes to see realism, Huston is the one to which to turn."
Now, this one is choice. See a western for "realism?" Easy to knock a film by criticising it for what it is not, nor intended to be. Helps you from the real job at hand. You mean, when Clint kills as many men in one fight as Billie the Kid and Wild Bill did their entire careers, that was not "real." I'll never watch another western.
"The Treasure of the Sierra Madre" was groundbreaking long before Eastwood was beginning his "Rawhide" years."
What the hell does "Treasure" have anything to do with this argument? By the way, I did love "Treasure." The Great Train Robbery was groundbreaking long before Bogie wore a toupee.
Either way, "brevity is the soul of wit."
I guess the definition of "irony" eludes you.
Neither. The fact that you are apparently incapable of substantively responding to facts with an intelligent response containing specific facts in reply to illustrate your support for your so-called arguments demonstrates that you neither know the definition of "irony", you do not know how to use the word in practice, and you cannot defend your opinions with anything more than mindless sarcasm.
Once again, I give you an opportunity to show the community here you have an ability for analytical thought beyond merely parroting words you gather from the word of the day calendar, and to provide a response to your obvious hypocrisy vis a vis Tarantino, Unforgiven, and your obvious mischaracterization and/or misunderstanding of Eastwood's character in GB&U. I provide facts. You provide only insults. Rather than intelligently discuss and answer these facts, you instead prefer childish banter. You further confirm for me that while you like to shine a bright pretty light for everyone to look at, you provide no heat, or anything remotely useful beyond the wrapping on the box.
I am beginning to suspect that the only life you lead is the one you lead here. Perhaps that is by choice. Perhaps not. I'll see you on Monday. I have a life and family to get back to, one that would actually prefer me to be there than here.
You're both.
There must be a term for "diarrhea of the fingertips."
You have it, bad.
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