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I've got a problem getting all of the sound settings right for watching 5.1-surround movies with a two-channel audio rig. This is a bit of an involved tale but I would really appreciate a word or two of reaction, so please do bear with me:
At the moment I'm running a Sony DVP-NS70H DVD-player into a Panasonic TH-50PX60U plasma TV, connected via HDMI. From there the TV is connected to an old Rotel RC-995 preamp, via analog (RCA) interconnects. The Rotel doesn't have anything else.
When I watch movies that are only recorded in 3/2.1 surround (e.g., "Layer Cake"), I can't hear the audio very well. There are so many different menu settings for audio, and they're so badly documented, that I can't tell which settings are right and which are wrong (and a process-of-elimination would take longer than most people live).
Here's a sample of the DVD player's owners' manual:
"When you select one of the TV Virtual Surround Settings, if you use the DIGITAL OUT (OPTICAL or COAXIAL) / HDMI OUT jack and set DOLBY DIGITAL to DOLBY DIGITAL, and DTS to ON in AUDIO SETUP, sound will come from your speakers but it will not have the surround effect." (Page 43)
...Sound will come from my speakers? Does that mean "sound will come from my rear channel speakers (if I have any, which I don't), but they won't play the actual surround channel," or does that mean, "sound will come from my front speakers" (which it always does, just not always intelligebly)? Or does it mean something else altogether?
Here's another, from a completely different place in the manual:
"DOWNMIX switches the method for mixing down to 2 channels when you play a DVD which has rear sound elements (channels) or is recorded in Dolby Digital format. Normally, set to DOLBY SURROUND. Multi-channel audio signals are output to 2-channels for enjoying surround sounds. Set to NORMAL and multi-channel audio signals are downmixed to 2 channels for use with your stereo." (Page 66.)
Have I got that right? DOLBY SURROUND sends the multi-channel content to 2-channels, but, on the other hand, NORMAL is the setting if you want the multi-channel content down-mixed to 2-channels? Isn't that THE SAME FREAKING THING?
...And on into the night. There are, at least, six other settings you can toggle, that I didn't quote the manual on, here. If I quoted them all, the post would go on for two pages (and probably by the end of it there would be blood seeping from your ears).
Now, I could e-mail Sony (and/or Panasonic) but there's one more wrinkle: I just bought an Arcam FMJ-A22 integrated amplifier with a DAVE module for generating 5.1 output (if you add a companion, gain-matched three-channel amp, which I can't afford right now). This means that I can now use a digital audio line to connect the DVD player directly to the Arcam, but it seems also to mean that I'll have to start over getting the settings right.
HELP!
Follow Ups:
It may sound stupid, but have you programmed your DVD player to output a 'phantom' mode, so that the center channel information is passed to the left and right speakers?
If not, you aren't going to be getting much dialogue at all with out a center channel.
Stu
Good question, and definitely necessary if you're using a 4.1 system or the like (5.1 without the centre). The original poster said they were doing 2 channel and every player I've owned has given the option of 5.1 output or stereo. If you choose 5.1, then you get the option to set speaker configuration and can set things for a phantom centre but on all the players I've owned that has not been necessary if you choose stereo output. Stereo gives you just the 2 channels with the centre channel info passed to the stereo pair.
David Aiken
So far, of all the forums where I've asked this question, this is the most intriguing possibility because it's something that would effect a major change in the way the signal is being handled out the back of the DVD-player. I can toggle "sleep modes" and "virtual surround speakers" and "dynamic range control", even fiddle with some quick changes to the room acoustics, and these things all make some difference -- but the sound still sounds really, REALLY wrong, even when I'm done. I don't know anything about this five-channel stuff (in case you haven't noticed) but the symptoms I'm having certainly sound more like what you'd hear of all of the center-channel signal was being dropped on the floor.
Two problems, however: first, I'm only running two channel stereo, and other posters in other forums have said, "If you're running two-channel analog audio cables from the DVD player, there's no way you can be dropping any of the channels on the floor because the down-mix is automatic (which doesn't seem consistent with my experience, but that's what they've said); and, second, I find no reference in the 77-page owners' manual to a "phantom mode" into which I could program it for proper handling of the missing center channel.
I just downloaded your player's manual and re-read your original post.It seems you're taking the audio by HDMI to the TV then using the TV's 2 channel analog outlets to take a signal to the amp. You did not mention an audio connection directly between the player and the amp so I'm assuming you don't have one.
Suggested Fix 1-
Go to the DVD player's Audio Setup screen and there should be a Downmix option with 2 settings, 'Dolby Surround' or 'Normal'. Set it to 'Normal' which actually provides a stereo downmix. For some reason they don't label this option as Stereo but the manual says that it is stereo. Make sure the Digital Out setting is set to "On".
Using your remote, press the 'Sur' button until the 'Off' setting is reached. That turns all virtual surround options off.
That should fix things. If it doesn't, try the following:
Suggested Fix 2-
Leave the HDMI cable to the TV alone because it's going to take the video signal.
The DVD player only has a pair of stereo analog outs so it will supply a downmixed signal to those outs. Disconnect the analog interconnect from the TV and connect it to the analog outs on the DVD player. Now you're passing an analog stereo signal direct from the player to the amp. How does that sound? If that works, leave things that way. Remember that audio is still going via HDMI to the TV so turn the TV sound off when you try this. You don't want to confuse things with sound from the TV's speakers as well as from your other speakers.
If things don't sound good that way, go back to the Audio Setup screen for the player and set the Digital Out setting to 'Off'. That cancels the digital audio output via HDMI and only leaves the analog audio output which is going direct to the amp.
If that works and you want the option of sound via the TV or by using the amp, then disconnect the analog interconnects from the amp and hook them to the TV so you're sending the stereo analog signal to the TV, then hook another pair of analog interconnects from the TV to the amp. If you want to use the speakers connected to the amp, just remember to mute the TV when you turn the amp on so you only have one set of speakers playing.
If that doesn't work then I'm at a loss because it should work from what I quickly read in the manual.
David Aiken
First of all, let me just say thank you for taking the time to look into this as deeply as you have -- I really appreciate it.
The connections you've described are indeed the connections I have, at the moment. The trouble is, first, that I have past experience running the audio signal direct from the stereo RCA outs on the player to the amp, and the same problem has occurred (I think it has something to do with the fact that there are a troubling surfeit of different places to make adjustments to the sound). Second, I've just bought an Arcam FMJ-A22 integrated, and it's got a space on the back for an optical digital input that I was hoping to use -- both for improved fidelity and because the FMJ-A22 is equipped with a DAVE module for generating 5.1 sound, and will eventually be employed in a true 5.1 system. I'm loathe to hook the DVD player to the boring old analog RCA's on the back of an amp that is optical-digital capable.
If you aren't completely bored with this already (and who could blame you?) the pages of the owner's manual where all the trouble seems to be are 23-24, 42-43, and 65-66. Between them I count about eleven different menu settings, any one of which could be causing internal confusion for the player.
One more favor: even if you don't want to mess with this anymore, could you post the link to the owner's manual? I've got this same question up in several other forums and a few other people have been dutifully trying to help.
I didn't realise the Arcam had a digital input. Definitely go optical then if you wish instead of using the direct analog input.
Where I tracked things down in the manual was at page 66 in the section entitled "Downmix (DVD Video/DVD-VR mode only). That refers to the Downmix option in the Audio Setup and states that the "Normal" setting provides a 2 channel downmix. The "Digital Out" setting is discussed below that (needs to be set to "on").
Following that is a section on setting the digital output setting. If your Arcam does not have Dolby/DTS decoding, you need to set this to D-PCM. That allows the player to decode the soundtrack to PCM format, the same kind of signal present on a CD, and then the Arcam's DAC can do the digital to analog conversion. If the Arcam can decode Dolby and/or DTS bitstreams, set the digital output to Dolby Digital and the DTS option to On.
I just noticed that at page 65, there's also an "Audio (HDMI) setting" which you need to set. Set it to PCM if the TV does not have a Dolby decoder and to Auto if it does. It does the same thing for audio via HDMI as the digital output setting does for the optical out.
The stuff about the remote and the virtual surround options was at pages 42-43.
The above settings will apply whether or not you just take the digital audio signal from the player via HDMI and then pass it to the amp via the TV, or if you run HDMI to the TV and an optical i/c to the Arcam. If you run the optical to the Arcam, you obviously shouldn't need the analog i/cs between the TV and the Arcam.
If you eventually go with a surround setup, you will need to change the Downmix setting at that time.
I can't remember the link for the manual, I didn't take a note. I just went to Sony's website and tracked down the manual from there in the support area.
If you've got the connections right, and it's hard to get the connections wrong—there's a lot less options than there are on my player which offers HDMI, coax and optical digital, 2 ch analog, and separate 5.1 ch analog outputs)—then it has to be the settings. If you have the Downmix setting set to "Normal", you should be getting a stereo downmix and that should split the centre channel info from the soundtrack between both L & R speakers. The only other thing to watch is the virtual surround options which usually don't work too well so leave that turned off.
The final thing, as I said earlier, is always select the stereo soundtrack on the disc if one is offered. That always, in my experience, gives better results than a downmix by the player or a receiver if you're using one.
David Aiken
Okay, mine is set up in the ways you've indicated -- thanks again for taking the time. I have one last question: should I set DRC ("Dynamic Range Control") to TV-MODE, despite the consequences in compression, if I still can't hear the dialogue very well, or would you just live with it set on STANDARD to avoid having all of that extra nonsense in the signal path?
I'd experiment with it on a case by case basis. Use it where it helps and don't use it where it doesn't.
If something is useful in a particular situation, then it makes sense to use it. It doesn't take long to toggle through a set of options. I often toggle through the Dolby and DTS surround sound options to see which is best. If you have options, pick the one that's best on a case by case basis.
David Aiken
Sorry, I forgot that you are running the analog outputs of the DVD player to the TV set first. It is supposed to automatically convert the signal to true stereo. Of course, some units have a six channel output, and that would throw the signal off just as well as a digital one programmed only for 5+ channels.
These days, even DVD players have programming which must be set to make compatibility with components further upstream. Unfortunately I am not very familiar with the Sony unit you have. Have you tried viewing the menu and entering the audio portion and simply checking what pops up?
Stu
If I weren't afraid of sending an enormous post, I'd be tempted to list all of the different settings in the various menus related to audio, and what the manual says about them, and where they're set right now. But that's an awful lot of work to expect anyone else to wade through for nothing.
I had this problem a couple of years ago while I was still running a 2 channel HT system. Simple solution: don't use a virtual surround sound option. Just use an unprocessed stereo downmix.
The virtual surround options try to replicate some of the effect of genuine surround systems by playing with the phase of parts of the signal in order to make it appear that some of the sounds are coming from the sides or rear of the room. That usually makes speech harder to understand in my experience.
In your case, what you want is the NORMAL setting on your player. That should be a straight stereo downmix without the added processing of a virtual surround option.
There are 2 other hints:
1- Check the soundtrack options on the disc itself for a 2 channel soundtrack. Playing a dedicated 2 channel track usually sounds better than playing a surround soundtrack and downmixing it to stereo.
2- There are occasional discs with the option of a 2 channel virtual surround soundtrack. The 4 disc director's cut versions of the Lord of the Rings films include such tracks. These can actually work quite well because the sound engineer can ensure that the virtual suround effects don't interfere with the dialogue so definitely try those tracks.
Provided you choose the right output option for the DVD player, choosing a stereo soundtrack where there is one or a simple stereo downmix when there is no stereo track, it won't matter whether you use a digital or analog connection to your amp. If you use a digital connection, set it to PCM which is the same kind of signal that a CD player outputs. That means the DAC in the amp will be able to convert the digital signal to analog. Don't output a bitstream signal unless the amp/receiver has decoders for Dolby or DTS as well as a DAC. Dolby and DTS signals are bitstreams which have to be decoded to PCM first, and then processed by a DAC.
Just don't introduce any further processing in the amp/receiver if it has any such options. Just leave it decoding and playing the simple stereo signal it receives from your player.
David Aiken
Thanks for the quick reply -- I've noticed that I even have problems hearing soft-spoken dialogue with no 'virtual surround,' especially if the movie doesn't have any 2.0 track (Layer Cake, for example, only has a 2.0 track if you want to listen to the commentary.) Now, I did find one of the various settings had a big impact: the "DRC" setting, when toggled from "NORMAL" to "TV-MODE" causes the light stuff to be much more audible, but my concern is that this is adding a lot of compression and distortion to the bigger sounds, too. Any thoughts?
Don't know what your "DRC" is, it may be something like "Night" mode on my Denon receiver which is a compression setting that reduces the range between the softest and loudest sounds.
Compression doesn't usually introduce distortion to an undistorted sound unless you also turn the volume up to the point where the amp or speakers distort noticeably but the cause of the distortion there is the volume level rather than the compression. On the other hand compression doesn't remove distortion either. If you compress a distorted sound, it will still be distorted after compression. Compression will result in you listening to softer sounds at a louder level if you maintain either average or peak volume levels as they were before applying the compression. That MAY make speech more audible and legible in some cases. On the other hand, if the background sounds/music are of a sufficient level and in a similar frequency bandwidth to the speech so that they were masking the speech to some degree before compression, compression won't help there and it's always possible that it may make things a little worse. I suspect what's going to happen in any given case is going to depend on the soundtrack and the respective levels of speech and sounds/music within the track to some degree.
Part of your problem may have to do with room acoustics, especially if your room gives a bit of a boost to high and low frequencies relative to the mids. You may want to play around with tone controls a little, and also any EQ options available on your player. Some Dolby/DTS decoders offer a 'Cinema EQ' option which rolls the high frequencies off slightly and that may help. Alternatively, introducing a little high and/or low frequency cut with tone controls may make the voice range a little more prominent and help with speech intelligibility.
David Aiken
Dynamic Range Compression?
It stands for "Dynamic Range Control", so you were close. The manual (which homeless shelter are they trolling to find the people who write these things?) says the following:
"Makes the sound clear when the volume is turned down when playing a DVD that conforms to 'AUDIO DRC'. This function affects output from the line out, digital out, and HDMI output jacks, but only affects output from the HDMI jack when DOLBY DIGITAL is set to D-PCM (see page 66).
STANDARD: Normally select this position.
TV MODE: Makes low sound clear even if you turn the volume down.
WIDE RANGE: Gives the feeling of a live performance."
(Pg 65.)
...Okay, so never mind the eighteen ways this language is either muddled, incomplete, or references jargon that isn't defined -- never mind that -- the real concern I have is that it sounds like a sonically non-neutral band-aid for what, in my case, is an actual setup problem.
Don't use "Digital Out", use "Analog Out" If you can't do this, set the Digital out to "PCM". This will downconvert multi-channel soundtracks to simple stereo for your setup.
Yeah I think (not looking at it right this moment) that I can switch the digital out to PCM.
There's also another setting I wanted to ask about: "Audio DRC." When it's set to NORMAL, I can barely hear the soft bits of dialogue in Layer Cake, but when I set it to TV-MODE the soft bits are much more clearly audible. That's the good news -- but I'm also concerned that the way this is being accomplished is by adding a lot of compression (and a lot of distortion) to the loud bits. Is that true? Am I dealing with a vastly messier signal with it set in TV-MODE, or not?
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