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In Reply to: RE: "You really can't put a price on that" posted by Wendell Narrod on January 21, 2010 at 09:05:58
I'd rather discuss reality than hypotheticals. I never would buy a Lexicon because I've listened and prefer other gear. The main products I've bought that I've regretted are an expensive Classe Omega disc player and bunch of cheap bicycle pumps. My point is you can waste your money buying expensive crap and cheap crap--all kinds of crap--if you don't do some homework first. In the case of the Lexicon, the only people who would buy this probably have all Lexicon amp and preamp gear--just want to stay in the family, and don't mind getting a rebadged Oppo (as it's well known now what they're getting).
The other point I wish to make is that OEMing is common practice. It's not like releasing a bad or dangerous product, like those baby carriages that chop off the tips of fingers when the canopy is collapsed or cars with faulty breaks or pet food with lethal ingredients. On a scale of product horror shows, Lexicon seems fairly benign to me and while we are not impressed with what they did, it doesn't seem worth the outrage it provoked. Not by a longshot.
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We must be the change we wish to see in the world. -Gandhi
Follow Ups:
It is NOW well known and if someone chooses to buy it, fine. It wasn't and wouldn't have been well known if left to Lexicon. You don't see a problem, I do. OEM is fine but their is implied added value by the company selling the final product. If there isn't, I consider it fraud. If you don't so be it.
-Wendell
Actually the definition of OEM implies no changes in the actual product--simply rebranding.
Lexicon announced a long time ago that they would OEM the Oppo. One would hope they would have improved the board/power supply or at least used the SE version to rebadge, but they never said they would. As for the cost, that's what happens when companies OEM things. They pass onto the customer all their costs, charging a premium and using their branding to target specific dealers and customers. Happens a lot.
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We must be the change we wish to see in the world. -Gandhi
I don't recall ever reading anywhere that Lexicon was just going to rebrand the Oppo BDP-83 and sell it in a Lexicon billeted case.I do recall reading something about Lexicon using the Oppo design as a "base" player implying that Lexicon would be adding their own refinements or something to that effect. If that isn't misleading, then I don't know what is!
BTW, the term "OEM" only means original equipment manufacturer and nothing more, it may imply rebranding but it doesn't indicate one way or another how much of the product has been sourced elsewhere. Those three letters by themselves, used outside of web discussion, are misleading when applied to a final product without provision of details about secondary or aftermarket modifications.
Here is the Wikipedia entry on the OEM confusion:
"Confusingly, OEM may also refer to a company that purchases a component made by a second company for use in the purchasing company's products. For instance if company 'A Inc' purchases optical drives from company 'B Ltd' that will be used in 'A Inc' computers , then 'company A' is the OEM.
An even more confusing, contradictory definition for OEM is a company that sells the product of the second company under its own brand name.
Companies who follow the above practices are better termed VARs (value-added resellers) or resellers, respectively."
The idea of referring to Lexicon as a VAR (value-added reseller) is even more questionable (IMO) when little value is added beyond a new case and relabeling.
Cheers,
AuPh
Edits: 01/22/10
No one ever said there weren't shady things going on in audio/video land, but what they have done is to shade into black. And no doubt if enough people buy those things Lexicon will definitely be "in the black", singing We're in the money! We're in the money! all the way to the bank.
Horrible.
deal with such things as certification for industry standards, consult with Oppo, employ an assembly line of workers in Indiana and offer an expensive alternative to a cheaply made Chinese product. The nerve of these guys. We should storm their office and burn down the joint.
The way you guys evaluate products and markets, it's a miracle every US job hasn't been exported by now.
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We must be the change we wish to see in the world. -Gandhi
... let me get this straight:
Your idea of keeping jobs in America is to sub-contract for products manufactured in China, use a questionable certification scheme to give the product "official" stature, have a small group of underpaid U.S. workers drop the Asian manufactured player into a heavier billeted case, relabel the player with a well known American brand name and then charge seven fold for that privilege to unsuspecting high-end buyers?
Yeah dude, that's REAL entrepreneurship! ;^D
AuPh
I blame this sense of entitlement where you think everything that's worth owning should be cheap. That kind of thinking is what outsourced shoes to sweat shops, produce to South America and consumer electronics to Asia. Now yes, it's come to this. Companies from Runco to Lexicon have to rebadge Chinese-made products or go out of business. But it's beyond luxury items; it's the mindset that we must find a cheap deal for something to be worth buying instead of rewarding a manufacturer for workmanship and knowing their trade. I've never regretted paying for quality, but I have regretted buying cheap gear to save money.
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We must be the change we wish to see in the world. -Gandhi
> > > "I blame this sense of entitlement where you think everything that's worth owning should be cheap." < < <
So, as an alternative to buying obviously outsourced products sold at a cheap price that provide a good value for cost ratio you'd say that it's okay for a "manufacturer" to purchase the same outsourced product in quantity that is being sold for a reasonable price, drop it into their own fancy case, slap on their highfalutin name and sell it for a premium price?
Sorry dude, but as usual, your logic eludes me! ;^>
> > > "Now yes, it's come to this. Companies from Runco to Lexicon have to rebadge Chinese-made products or go out of business. But it's beyond luxury items; it's the mindset that we must find a cheap deal for something to be worth buying instead of rewarding a manufacturer for workmanship and knowing their trade." < < <
This isn't supposed to be a political site, but I think it's fair to say, regardless of where one stands on hot-button issues, that we've been wrecked by many years of unfair trade practices complicated by deficit spending (borrowing, to pay for wars which should not be prosecuted without tax increases, etc.) that has resulted in a depressed economy which only supports cheaper manufactured goods for most Americans. A/V is no different than other aspects of the national economy when it comes to making choices, but those who CAN afford better gear don't like being suckered and made to look foolish for buying repackaged, relabeled products.
That, "my friend," is the bottom line.
AuPh
This is not "news" and this is not without precedent either, as Lexicon did not alter its RT-20 after OEMing it from Marantz. I can pull up many threads like this from mid-summer after Lexicon's announcement.
Topic: Lexicon to launch an OPPO clone
Posted: 25 Jul 2009 at 12:08pm
the BD-30 is 7 times the oppo price!
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We must be the change we wish to see in the world. -Gandhi
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