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In Reply to: RE: Just look at the pics and read the description. posted by The Real Dick Hertz on January 18, 2010 at 13:11:08
Or whether, for example, the stereo and 7.1 channels’ output muting circuits have been bypassed from those photos.
Or whether dampening/grounding/isolation issues have been changed.
Or any of a thousand other parameters that the photo and the Audioholics reviewer (who's on a smear campaign) can't easily ascertain.
Didn't think so.
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We must be the change we wish to see in the world. -Gandhi
Follow Ups:
...there was $2000 worth of new resistors in the Lexicon unit. Did you compare the pictures of the two units? Did you look at the pics of the back panels? Did you compare the measurements of the two units? If you can find anything at all that makes the Lexicon worth $3000 more than the Oppo, please point it out.
Edits: 01/18/10
> > ...there was $2000 worth of new resistors in the Lexicon unit. Did you compare the pictures of the two units? Did you look at the pics of the back panels? Did you compare the measurements of the two units? < <
Changes like those I previously asked you about would not affect the audio board topology, nor would they be visible in the picture. I thought you would understand that, but evidently you needed me to spell it out for you.
> > If you can find anything at all that makes the Lexicon worth $3000 more than the Oppo, please point it out. < <
The hobby we're in is called Audio. It involves LISTENING. I have not listened to the Lexicon so I can't say. You haven't either, yet you are willing to form a conclusion based on inconclusive evidence. When a high end engineer works on a component, sometimes hundreds or even thousands of hours of what audio designers call "voicing" is used to justify the final product and pricepoint. When we buy an audio component, we're not just paying for a bunch of parts but for the designer's expertise in deciding which parts to use and how to use them.
That's why you pay $2.00 for a can of Ragu yet you pay $20.00 for a plate of spaghetti at your favorite Italian restaurant for what are essentially the same ingredients.
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We must be the change we wish to see in the world. -Gandhi
:O)
you really aren't in a position to say.
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We must be the change we wish to see in the world. -Gandhi
I'm sure the fancy faceplate and the deeper blue lights make a significant improvement in the sound over the standard Oppo unit that's $3000 less. And if I was someone who bought the Lexicon unit, I'd think the same thing after extensive listening tests. After all, who wants to admit they got ripped off?
I just can't decide whether your behavior is more like the humbug Wizard, the melted witch or Dorothy's little dog Toto. ;O)What I will say is this: If, and let me reiterate ...IF... Lexicon is dropping a player that they've sourced from Oppo or parent company BBK (the same Chinese manufacturer which supplies Oppo's $500 BDP-83) into a heavier chassis and then charging $3500 a pop for 'em without providing any noteworthy performance enhancements and modifications with higher quality parts then it is a deception that their potential customers should be clued in about.
While it may be entirely legal for brand name labels to source their products from OEMs, repackage and charge whatever they want, it isn't ethical to deceive shoppers who think that they are buying the "best" bang for their high-end buck; that seems to be the consensus on most A/V sites, discussion boards and blogs as well. Of course, as always, YMMV; feel free to dissent.
BTW, I'll wager that I've read a lot more on this developing story than you have so in that regard I'm probably a quite a bit better informed than you appear to be (from multiple sources). Do your homework, and then jump back into the discussion.
Cheers,
AuPh
Edits: 01/19/10
We already knew that.
I'm not convinced the Audioholics dudes know what modifications look like on an audio board--know what Vishay resistors look like, for example. They know the board topology is the same--but everyone knew that before cracking open the Lexicon chassis because (again) Lexicon announced it was using the Oppo months ago. I'm also not convinced the potential dampening/isolation/grounding changes from the chassis have no impact on the sound. On some components you just put a shakti stone on the chassis or a set of Aurios underneath and it makes a big impact. That there is zero impact on audio, as Audioholics claims, to me says the reviewer probably isn't attuned to differences in sound, although I'd have to do a comparison to confirm.
The Audioholics dudes acted like Lexicon broke the 10 commandments on what is a fairly common practice in audio. The rest of you joined the lynch mob. Sorry, but I'm more sober in my assessment. If that means I take insults from people like Hertz and you, whose judgment has not really impressed me in the past BTW, so be it.
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We must be the change we wish to see in the world. -Gandhi
Yes, everyone knew that the Oppo BDP-83 was going to be used by Ayers, Theta and Lexicon as a base player from which to build their own designs. I'm pretty sure that the logical assumption most A/V-philes would make is that performance would be ratcheted up by these high-end manufacturers with all sorts of modifications along with high quality parts as per the Nuforce edition along with proprietary firmware tweaks in addition to having a heavier case. That apparently has not occurred if the Audioholics testing is accurate.
> > > "I'm also not convinced the potential dampening/isolation/grounding changes from the chassis have no impact on the sound." < < <
Of course it "might" muffle a modest amount of internal noise assuming it was noticeable in the first place, ...but $3000 worth? Trust me, better component isolation can be achieved for a heck of a lot less. As this story unfolds it looks more and more like Lexicon may have gotten caught playing a shell game on their customers, the "shell" being a fancy face plate and a bought & paid label for THX certification (which is probably a scam as well).
> > > "The Audioholics dudes acted like Lexicon broke the 10 commandments on what is a fairly common practice in audio." < < <
OEM resourcing may be common practice, but given the growing outrage over this faux pas a better analogy might be the fabled money-changers being beaten from the high-end temple. ;O)
Cheers,
AuPh
The ear is ultimately the only instrument that matters when it comes to determining the quality of a component. If you think a voltmeter has all the answers for you, think again. Why would a Vishay resistor measure differently than other resistors, especially since you'd use the same resistor value for any you'd replace! Why would you expect different measurements? Sound is a different matter.
> > OEM resourcing may be common practice, but given the growing outrage over this faux pas a better analogy might be the fabled money-changers being beaten from the high-end temple. ;O) < <
Growing outrage on the internet is like growing tumbleweeds in the desert. I'd be shocked if any of you "outraged" consumers had bought the Lexicon, or had even been tempted to buy it. You're just looking to join a lynch mob. Now that I realize Lexicon based its BDP on the non-SE Oppo, I'm no longer in the mood to defend the company, but I'm certainly not impressed with Audioholics and their "scientific" tests that were about as scientific as a crucifixion.
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We must be the change we wish to see in the world. -Gandhi
;O)
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