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Lexicon busted passing Oppo off as a $3500 Blu-ray player

69.20.211.50

Maybe you guys knew about this already, but I thought this was interesting...

Cheers,
Bobbo :-)
Lexicon busted passing Oppo off as a $3500 Blu-ray player (Open in New Window)

Follow Ups:

A more sober and sane article on the Lexicon from Chris Martens - Jazz Inmate 08:44:42 01/28/10 (17)
Seems that Lexicon's involvement raised the bar for all Oppo owners--pretty ironic considering the lynch mob of Oppo fans attacking Lexicon.
Excerpts: I asked again whether Oppo and Lexicon had worked on the BD-30 and learned that in fact they had. Marc Kellom, Harman International’s head of High Performance A/V products, indicated that the same supplier that builds the Oppo player in its entirety manufactures core elements of the BD-30 in China. Final assembly, firmware loading, and quality control testing for the BD-30, however, take place in Lexicon’s facility based in Elkhart, Indiana.
Kellom explained that during the development of both players, Lexicon had evaluated the then-current Oppo design and suggested some video-related changes—changes that were eventually incorporated in production versions of both players. Similarly, Lexicon bore the costs of having the Oppo design put through conformance testing relative to various worldwide consumer safety standards and to put it through THX qualification testing, again leading to changes that were incorporated into both players.
Knowing that it would sell its version of the player through its upscale, service-oriented retail dealer channel (where the standing expectation is that dealers will provide expert custom installation/integration services), Lexicon decided that its version of the player would need several changes vis-à-vis a standard Oppo player. First, it required a significant more beefy and elegant looking chassis (and one strong enough to support rack mounting), plus firmware modifications that would make the player easier for dealers to integrated with other Lexicon high-performance A/V products (e.g., the MC-12). Second, the player required formal THX certification—if only for the sake of consistency with other THX-certified Lexicon products. Third, the BD-30 would need to ship with somewhat different accessories than those that come with the standard Oppo player, including a set of rack-mounting “ears” plus a copy of the well-regarded Joe Kane Productions Digital Video Essentials HD Basics, Blu-ray Edition HD set-up toolkit disk.
The upshot, then, is that the BD-30 takes the core chassis, circuit boards, and drive mechanism of a standard Oppo BDP-83 universal Blu-ray player, and mounts them within a heavily built Lexicon enclosure, “re-flashes” the player’s firmware EPROMs with Lexicon-spec code, and then performs its own battery of final quality control tests in the US.
At any rate, the video and audio performance characteristics of the Lexicon BD-30 and Oppo BDP-83 are essentially identical, with one small difference. The much heavier chassis casework of the BD-30 makes its mechanical operation noticeably quieter than the Oppo.
Given that The Perfect Vision has already done an in-depth review of the BDP-83, we have elected not to do a full review of the Lexicon. However, if we had prepared a full review, the concluding paragraphs might have read something like this:
The Lexicon BD-30 is an excellent universal Blu-ray player, offering exemplary video performance and very good, though not quite great, sound quality. I expect the player will find favor among customers who appreciate the benefits and services that Lexicon’s excellent retail dealer network can provide.
Even so, there is an element of disappointment here, and it revolves around the fact that the BD-30 does not, apart from its somewhat quieter mechanical operation, improve upon the core A/V performance of the inexpensive Oppo BDP-83 upon which it is based. Given the BD-30’s hefty price tag, I think customers might well have expected more.
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We must be the change we wish to see in the world. -Gandhi
- http://www.avguide.com/blog/first-listen-lexicon-bd-30-unive (Open in New Window)
Edits: 01/28/10
- which brings up a rather interesting question - Joe Murphy Jr 06:58:50 01/30/10 (4)
  The reason the DV-983H, BDP-83 and its derivatives are so special is due to DVDO's ABT video processor.
  
  "...Lexicon had evaluated the then-current Oppo design and suggested some video-related changes—changes that were eventually incorporated in production versions of both players."
  
  WTF would oppo consult with Lexicon about the video processing when DVDO, who is the real source of oppo's fame , STF knows a ton more about video processing than Lexicon?
  
  Not hatin' on you Jazz: just an inquiring mind wantin' ta know. Not that it really matters, as I don't pay for audio "jewelry". And while I feel a little sad for those who pay for Lexicon "bling bling" (which, if you're honest, really does amount to a faceplate), they deserve to be screwed -- even if they're screwing themselves -- because anyone spending that amount of money should be responsible enough to do at least some research beyond, you know, the...
  
  faceplate.
  - I don't find that queston too interesting - Jazz Inmate 14:03:23 01/31/10 (3)
    Probably a connectivity issue or options like PIP or zoom. Who cares?
    
    What if you want the Oppo but need to rack-mount it? Or you're a wealthy HT owner who works with a dealer/installer specializing in Lexicon gear...you really feel sorry for such people?
    
    Really, this whole matter is blown so far out of whack to demonize Lexicon it is pathetic. I don't feel sorry for the few people buying the Lexicon. I feel sorry for people in Haiti. But the Lexicon haters have managed to appear extremely whiney without suffering any misfortune. Quite a feat. Makes me shake my head in bewilderment.
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    We must be the change we wish to see in the world. -Gandhi
    - It's definitely buyer beware. - The Real Dick Hertz 19:29:56 01/31/10 (0)
      But that's the way the high end is, isn't it? Teleportation tweaks anyone?
    - sorry for a few - Joe Murphy Jr 17:43:46 01/31/10 (0)
      There are people with money who are taken advantage of by installers. These people aren't tech savvy enough to know that the $3.5k Lexicon is just a $.5k oppo in a heavier chassis. They just hire who they believe to be a reputable installer or one another wealthy friend recommended. And to the cleaners they go. I feel a little sorry for them (the installer is taking them to the cleaners). However, if you don't do the research yourself, you're going to get screwed Big Time eventually. I don't feel sorry for that aspect of those people.
      
      I would be glad to help you out if you truly want me to reply to your rack-mount question. And I guarantee it won't cost you an extra $300, much less $3k. But I doubt you really want to go there.
      
      I feel sorry for the Haitian children -- not the adults: the children have no say in where they live. Once an adult, if you choose to live in that area, you accept what nature delivers. And sometimes, you're delivered to your Maker.
    - "Really, this whole matter is blown so far out of whack" - Wendell Narrod 17:38:32 01/31/10 (0)
      By you. Your messages are the ones that come across as fanatical. Do your reviews have the same passion?
      
      -Wendell
- RE: A more sober and sane article on the Lexicon from Chris Martens - Wendell Narrod 10:26:37 01/28/10 (11)
  We must read differently. Lexicon, in my opinion, has clearly perpetrated a fraud with this player. Chris Martens' blog, on this topic, indicates he would do well as a congressional staffer. What a load of rationalization.
  
  -Wendell
  - RE: A more sober and sane article on the Lexicon from Chris Martens - Jazz Inmate 14:56:50 01/28/10 (10)
    Two points that show why Lexicon's collaboration with Oppo was advantageous and why Lexicon can charge a premium for its target market, namely existing Lexicon owners:
    
    1. Lexicon worked with Oppo on the design, and Lexicon's recommendations were incorporated by Oppo.
    
    2. Lexicon assembled the rebadge in the US (expensive) and installed firmware that optimizes how the player works with other Lexicon gear.
    
    Audioholics went on a smear campaign by pretending the Lexicon and Oppo were targeting the same market and that Lexicon didn't have a relationship with Oppo. The Lexicon BD-30 is for anyone who has a Lexicon pre/pro/amp setup and can afford the premium price. Otherwise, buy the Oppo. No one is asking you to be thankful that Lexicon was involved and had its improvements incorporated in the Oppo design, but the least you could do is stop this nonsense about fraud, which is a term with legal ramifications that are clearly not applicable here. You decided to join the Audioholics lynch mob like a lemming. But that was then. This is now. It's time to snap out of it.
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    We must be the change we wish to see in the world. -Gandhi
    - "stop this nonsense about fraud, which is a term with legal ramifications" - Wendell Narrod 15:52:18 01/28/10 (9)
      Thanks for telling me what my opinion should be. You're an apologist to the point of seeming to have a vested interest in the issue. I don't have a dog in the fight but know when a business practice smells.
      "At any rate, the video and audio performance characteristics of the Lexicon BD-30 and Oppo BDP-83 are essentially identical, with one small difference. The much heavier chassis casework of the BD-30 makes its mechanical operation noticeably quieter than the Oppo."
      Tell me again how a company is justified in a seven fold retail price increase for machines with identical performance. THX certification was for marketing purposes. Flashing firmware is trivial. They are charging $3000 for the casework which is fine as long as they are upfront about it.
      
      -Wendell
      
      Edits: 01/28/10
      - Fine, continue to act like Lexicon swindled the public if it makes you feel better - Jazz Inmate 17:21:27 01/28/10 (8)
        
        In Reply to: RE: "stop this nonsense about fraud, which is a term with legal ramifications" posted by Wendell Narrod on January 28, 2010 at 15:52:18
        
        This isn't a baby carriage that is chopping off fingertips, or pet food with a poisonous ingredient or cars where the accelerator peddle sticks. No one is being hurt here and nothing was stolen. No one is going to accidently buy the Lexicon and then realize they were robbed, like you audioholics dudes are pretending. The reason Lexicon is charging a premium is because a certain amount of time and cost went into the project with Oppo, the assembly is done in Indiana instead of Taiwan and the rebadging and firmware means that Lexicon can charge a premium to its clientele. They'll only buy the Lexicon for the reason I've cited three or four times now, which is they have other Lexicon products and want an all-Lexicon setup where the firmware is seamless with the other gear.
        And no, I don't have a vested interest in this. I just think it's the height of ignorance and slander to accuse Lexicon of fraud. We all knew about the rebadge last summer, along with Ayre and Theta, which are also based on the Oppo and cost thousands more than the Lexicon.
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        We must be the change we wish to see in the world. -Gandhi
        
        Edits: 01/28/10
        
        Firmware - cfraser 17:37:01 01/28/10 (5)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Fine, continue to act like Lexicon swindled the public if it makes you feel better posted by Jazz Inmate on January 28, 2010 at 17:21:27
        
        Don't want to get involved in the discussion too much LOL, we did that many months ago elsewhere(s), but the only reported firmware difference is the Oppo logo was replaced with the Lexicon one.
        Well, that and the Lexicon firmware may not be as up-to-date as the Oppo FW, since I don't know if Oppo will give Lex time to change logos in new versions before Oppo releases it to the public. Certainly the current Lex FW isn't as up-to-date as the current BDP-83 FW...not a big diff for many people, but some "higher end" wants were addressed.
        Edit: oh yeah, one other thing the new BDP-83 FW seemed to do, though I have no proof: make the BDP-83 noticeably quieter. I could swear the fan comes on less often and slower than before with the newest Jan./10 FW, and also the drawer opens and closes smoother/quieter. Both these things are apparently controllable via FW. I sit 9' from the 83 and can just barely hear those noises now with some strain, whereas I easily could before (no audio on of course) and I haven't moved the 83 since I got it ~7 months ago. Maybe even quieter than a nice box can suppress them if the "old" FW is being used...just saying...but don't know.
        
        Edits: 01/28/10
        
        RE: Firmware - Jazz Inmate 20:04:19 01/28/10 (4)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Firmware posted by cfraser on January 28, 2010 at 17:37:01
        
        > > Don't want to get involved in the discussion too much LOL, we did that many months ago elsewhere(s), but the only reported firmware difference is the Oppo logo was replaced with the Lexicon one. < <
        That's what Audioholics reported, but they didn't test both players with other Lexicon gear to see the if it does integrate easier in an all Lexicon system. Given that the Audioholics reviewer didn't test it either player with other Lexicon gear, how would he know the difference?
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        We must be the change we wish to see in the world. -Gandhi
        
        Edits: 01/28/10
        
        There *could* be other differences - cfraser 20:42:30 01/28/10 (3)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Firmware posted by Jazz Inmate on January 28, 2010 at 20:04:19
        
        But I think we have to consider that the primary features people would really get on, the audio and video "processing" hardware, is the same in both models (based on their inspection). Any differences would then be mainly operational functionality adjusted by FW. Oppo themselves have said that many other attributes people might like cannot be offered because the chip sets are a limiting factor, not firmware. By "processing" I am including the analog output stages, anything that directly affects what we see/hear after taken from the disc.
        If somebody asked me for an opinion on which model to buy, Lex or Oppo, and I said the Oppo, I would not think the person the slightest bit "stupid" if they bought the Lex instead. That is assuming $3.5k to them is about as financially "significant" as $500 is to me. There are plenty of people in that situation. It's nicer looking (opinion) and more exclusive and has a nice name and what the hell...
        I think at some point we have to stop being audio/video "mathematicians" and come to the reasonable conclusion that for all practical purposes two things are "the same", even if they aren't mathematically congruent.
        
        Edits: 01/28/10
        
        RE: There *could* be other differences - Jazz Inmate 21:15:00 01/28/10 (2)
        
        In Reply to: RE: There *could* be other differences posted by cfraser on January 28, 2010 at 20:42:30
        
        I think that misses the point. Under their agreement, Lexicon made design recommendations to Oppo. Those recommendations were all taken, according to Marc Kellom, Harman International’s head of High Performance A/V products. So the fact that the Lexicon and Oppo are the same implies that Lexicon, at its own expense and expertise, brought the quality of the Oppo up to its standards.
        For rabid Oppo fans to then parade around the internet acting like Lexicon broke the 10 commandments is quite ironic, considering they are enjoying Lexicon's improvements to the Oppo without compensating Lexicon. So if anyone is being robbed here, it may well be Lexicon.
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        We must be the change we wish to see in the world. -Gandhi
        
        Edits: 01/28/10
        
        What about the BDP-83SE changes? - cfraser 22:25:20 01/28/10 (1)
        
        In Reply to: RE: There *could* be other differences posted by Jazz Inmate on January 28, 2010 at 21:15:00
        
        Is it not agreed that that's a larger improvement than anything Harman suggested? Or was that their suggestion, and they chose not to use it? I say you're travelling a lonely road my friend...which is not a bad thing. :)
        
        I do have Harman and Lex gear in two of my rooms. Oppo also in one of those two, and another room too. I'm not biased. Just cheap.
        
        I bought one a month ago - Jazz Inmate 22:51:08 01/28/10 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: What about the BDP-83SE changes? posted by cfraser on January 28, 2010 at 22:25:20
        
        Yes, it makes more sense to criticize Lexicon for not OEM'ing the SE version of the Oppo, but I suppose the priority was placed on HDMI with analog performance an afterthought.
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        We must be the change we wish to see in the world. -Gandhi
        
        "I just think it's the height of ignorance " - Wendell Narrod 17:32:16 01/28/10 (1)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Fine, continue to act like Lexicon swindled the public if it makes you feel better posted by Jazz Inmate on January 28, 2010 at 17:21:27
        
        I haven't attacked you once during this exchange. I expressed an opinion. You can't deal with someone who disagrees with your position. It's best we
        drop this as it is going nowhere.
        
        BTW, I had never heard of audioholics before this thread began on the Lexicon/Oppo player.
        
        -Wendell
        
        Though I'm replying to you, I'm not talking about you specifically...don't take it personally - Jazz Inmate 20:10:34 01/28/10 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: "I just think it's the height of ignorance " posted by Wendell Narrod on January 28, 2010 at 17:32:16
        
        You're pretty mild compared to the hordes of irate high end haters who saw this Audioholics report as proof that mid-fi and low-fi is all anyone needs. They are ignorant. And so is the Audioholics reviewer who didn't understand the relationship between Lexicon and Oppo or Lexicon's target market.
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        We must be the change we wish to see in the world. -Gandhi
RE: Lexicon busted passing Oppo off as a $3500 Blu-ray player - cfraser 17:37:10 01/18/10 (2)
I'd pay $100 extra for a silver version of the BDP-83.

Putting "cheap" stuff in very expensive cases is nothing new in "high end". This occurrence is relatively nothing compared to some of the amplifiers that have been done...they've all been talked about here over many years. What's most surprising is that people still get surprised... I really don't think the people who buy this stuff care, whether they know or not. Mostly it just says good things about the BDP-83.
- RE: Lexicon busted passing Oppo off as a $3500 Blu-ray player - Kal Rubinson 17:50:33 01/18/10 (1)
  A little bath in NaOH might do the job.
  
  Kal
  - Don't give me any ideas - cfraser 19:53:32 01/18/10 (0)
    I have way too much time on my hands and bad things can happen... :)
Audioholics is on the warpath - Jazz Inmate 11:54:54 01/18/10 (34)
I don't trust the folks at Audioholics to look at an audio board and tell me whether there are no changes or whether Lexicon has bypassed the stereo and 7.1 channels’ output muting circuits, or made other changes. We all knew months ago that Theta, Lexicon and Ayre were going to use the Oppo as their starting platform. I really hate it when a reviewer goes on the warpath and spawns minions carrying pitchforks and torches all over the internet. I'm not rushing out to buy a BD-30 but Lexicon did nothing wrong and until you A/B it with the Oppo there is no way to know whether you'll hear a difference.
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We must be the change we wish to see in the world. -Gandhi
- RE: Audioholics is on the warpath - JimL 16:13:52 01/19/10 (16)
  It's a little hard to judge from the photos, but it certainly doesn't LOOK like Lexicon changed any components. For example the capacitors look the same. If they had switched to Vishay resistors, for example, they would definitely look different from the standard resistors, which look like carbon film for the most part as best I can tell - take a look on Michael Percy's website to see what different resistors look like. The Vishays look a little bit like power diodes with radial rather than axial leads, not tan colored round small cylinders. So at least there is no VISIBLE evidence that ANY components were changed. The other main class of components to be changed are the ICs, and I have to assume that Audioholics looked at the labels on the ICs to see if they were different, but maybe that's assuming too much for you. However, this is not in general an expensive proposition to do.
  Bypassing a muting circuit just takes a few wires, and changing the grounding again is mostly a matter of re-routing wiring, unless you redesign a circuit board, in which case why would the circuit boards look the same? Again, not a high price endeavor. Damping compound is also relatively inexpensive.
  Regardless, I think you're missing the point that all of these changes are relatively INexpensive, whereas what Lexicon is charging is anything but. Back when it was popular to take an inexpensive CD player and modify it with new ICs, resistors and caps, most modifiers charged a few hundred bucks. Even allowing for inflation, increasing the cost 5-fold seems excessive, when the only visible "refinement" is the case.
  Unless you're from the Steven Wright school of circuit modification, "Last night, someone broke into my house and replaced all my furniture with exact duplicates!"
  By the way, more commentary on this in the General Forum - posted by Dan Banquer, a manufacturer, and see comments by Charles Hansen, another manufacturer, who says Lexicon has done this in the past, and minces no words about saying this puts other manufacturers in a bad light. First time offenders might get the benefit of the doubt, however, for what sure sounds like a repeat offender, I think you're being way too generous.
  - General Asylum - Attack of the Clones Revisited (Open in New Window)
  Edits: 01/19/10
  - RE: Audioholics is on the warpath - Jazz Inmate 23:30:53 01/19/10 (15)
    Yes, I was giving Lexicon the benefit of the doubt. But after realizing that they don't even use the SE version of the Oppo, I am no longer in the mood to argue on their behalf.
    
    The broader issue I was speaking to is that we pay for more than just hardware but the hours of testing different parts--what Kevin Hayes of VAC calls voicing. You really can't put a price on that, and it's what I appreciate most about the design of my components. But that's probably why I ended up with VAC amplification and the Oppo SE instead of Lexicon products.
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    We must be the change we wish to see in the world. -Gandhi
    - "You really can't put a price on that" - Wendell Narrod 06:30:20 01/21/10 (12)
      Manufacturers and modders put a price on it all the time and, usually, it bears no relationship to research and development, design, prototypes or "voicing". It's more likely based on the client base and knowing what the small market will accept in pricing.
      
      -Wendell
      - RE: "You really can't put a price on that" - Jazz Inmate 09:01:36 01/21/10 (11)
        
        In Reply to: RE: "You really can't put a price on that" posted by Wendell Narrod on January 21, 2010 at 06:30:20
        
        It also has to do with the manufacturer's expertise. Lexicon has always been known more for its processors and amps than its disc machines. It offered the rebadged Oppo to its dealers and customers at a premium. BFD.
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        We must be the change we wish to see in the world. -Gandhi
        
        RE: "You really can't put a price on that" - Wendell Narrod 09:05:58 01/21/10 (10)
        
        In Reply to: RE: "You really can't put a price on that" posted by Jazz Inmate on January 21, 2010 at 09:01:36
        
        How would you feel if you bought one and later learned it was a stock $500 player in a fancy box at a $3000 premium. You wouldn't feel ripped off? As I said, they know their base of potential customers.
        
        -Wendell
        
        RE: "You really can't put a price on that" - Jazz Inmate 09:38:10 01/21/10 (9)
        
        In Reply to: RE: "You really can't put a price on that" posted by Wendell Narrod on January 21, 2010 at 09:05:58
        
        I'd rather discuss reality than hypotheticals. I never would buy a Lexicon because I've listened and prefer other gear. The main products I've bought that I've regretted are an expensive Classe Omega disc player and bunch of cheap bicycle pumps. My point is you can waste your money buying expensive crap and cheap crap--all kinds of crap--if you don't do some homework first. In the case of the Lexicon, the only people who would buy this probably have all Lexicon amp and preamp gear--just want to stay in the family, and don't mind getting a rebadged Oppo (as it's well known now what they're getting).
        
        The other point I wish to make is that OEMing is common practice. It's not like releasing a bad or dangerous product, like those baby carriages that chop off the tips of fingers when the canopy is collapsed or cars with faulty breaks or pet food with lethal ingredients. On a scale of product horror shows, Lexicon seems fairly benign to me and while we are not impressed with what they did, it doesn't seem worth the outrage it provoked. Not by a longshot.
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        We must be the change we wish to see in the world. -Gandhi
        
        "rebadged Oppo (as it's well known now what they're getting)." - Wendell Narrod 09:55:21 01/21/10 (8)
        
        In Reply to: RE: "You really can't put a price on that" posted by Jazz Inmate on January 21, 2010 at 09:38:10
        
        It is NOW well known and if someone chooses to buy it, fine. It wasn't and wouldn't have been well known if left to Lexicon. You don't see a problem, I do. OEM is fine but their is implied added value by the company selling the final product. If there isn't, I consider it fraud. If you don't so be it.
        
        -Wendell
        
        RE: "rebadged Oppo (as it's well known now what they're getting)." - Jazz Inmate 10:41:24 01/21/10 (7)
        
        In Reply to: RE: "rebadged Oppo (as it's well known now what they're getting)." posted by Wendell Narrod on January 21, 2010 at 09:55:21
        
        Actually the definition of OEM implies no changes in the actual product--simply rebranding.
        
        Lexicon announced a long time ago that they would OEM the Oppo. One would hope they would have improved the board/power supply or at least used the SE version to rebadge, but they never said they would. As for the cost, that's what happens when companies OEM things. They pass onto the customer all their costs, charging a premium and using their branding to target specific dealers and customers. Happens a lot.
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        We must be the change we wish to see in the world. -Gandhi
        
        "Lexicon announced a long time ago that they would OEM the Oppo." - Post the reference. - Audiophilander 10:01:01 01/22/10 (6)
        
        In Reply to: RE: "rebadged Oppo (as it's well known now what they're getting)." posted by Jazz Inmate on January 21, 2010 at 10:41:24
        
        I don't recall ever reading anywhere that Lexicon was just going to rebrand the Oppo BDP-83 and sell it in a Lexicon billeted case.
        I do recall reading something about Lexicon using the Oppo design as a "base" player implying that Lexicon would be adding their own refinements or something to that effect. If that isn't misleading, then I don't know what is!
        BTW, the term "OEM" only means original equipment manufacturer and nothing more, it may imply rebranding but it doesn't indicate one way or another how much of the product has been sourced elsewhere. Those three letters by themselves, used outside of web discussion, are misleading when applied to a final product without provision of details about secondary or aftermarket modifications.
        Here is the Wikipedia entry on the OEM confusion:
        "Confusingly, OEM may also refer to a company that purchases a component made by a second company for use in the purchasing company's products. For instance if company 'A Inc' purchases optical drives from company 'B Ltd' that will be used in 'A Inc' computers , then 'company A' is the OEM.
        An even more confusing, contradictory definition for OEM is a company that sells the product of the second company under its own brand name.
        Companies who follow the above practices are better termed VARs (value-added resellers) or resellers, respectively."
        The idea of referring to Lexicon as a VAR (value-added reseller) is even more questionable (IMO) when little value is added beyond a new case and relabeling.
        Cheers,
        AuPh
        
        Edits: 01/22/10
        
        totally agree - Joe Murphy Jr 18:35:55 01/31/10 (4)
        
        In Reply to: RE: "Lexicon announced a long time ago that they would OEM the Oppo." - Post the reference. posted by Audiophilander on January 22, 2010 at 10:01:01
        
        No one ever said there weren't shady things going on in audio/video land, but what they have done is to shade into black. And no doubt if enough people buy those things Lexicon will definitely be "in the black", singing We're in the money! We're in the money! all the way to the bank.
        
        Horrible.
        
        Yeah, how dare an American company make a US version of an Oppo - Jazz Inmate 08:36:43 02/02/10 (3)
        
        In Reply to: RE: totally agree posted by Joe Murphy Jr on January 31, 2010 at 18:35:55
        
        deal with such things as certification for industry standards, consult with Oppo, employ an assembly line of workers in Indiana and offer an expensive alternative to a cheaply made Chinese product. The nerve of these guys. We should storm their office and burn down the joint.
        
        The way you guys evaluate products and markets, it's a miracle every US job hasn't been exported by now.
        -------------
        
        We must be the change we wish to see in the world. -Gandhi
        
        "The way you guys evaluate products and markets, it's a miracle every US job hasn't been exported by now." - So, ... - Audiophilander 22:19:40 02/09/10 (2)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Yeah, how dare an American company make a US version of an Oppo posted by Jazz Inmate on February 02, 2010 at 08:36:43
        
        ... let me get this straight:
        
        Your idea of keeping jobs in America is to sub-contract for products manufactured in China, use a questionable certification scheme to give the product "official" stature, have a small group of underpaid U.S. workers drop the Asian manufactured player into a heavier billeted case, relabel the player with a well known American brand name and then charge seven fold for that privilege to unsuspecting high-end buyers?
        
        Yeah dude, that's REAL entrepreneurship! ;^D
        
        AuPh
        
        uh...no - Jazz Inmate 22:27:30 02/10/10 (1)
        
        In Reply to: RE: "The way you guys evaluate products and markets, it's a miracle every US job hasn't been exported by now." - So, ... posted by Audiophilander on February 09, 2010 at 22:19:40
        
        I blame this sense of entitlement where you think everything that's worth owning should be cheap. That kind of thinking is what outsourced shoes to sweat shops, produce to South America and consumer electronics to Asia. Now yes, it's come to this. Companies from Runco to Lexicon have to rebadge Chinese-made products or go out of business. But it's beyond luxury items; it's the mindset that we must find a cheap deal for something to be worth buying instead of rewarding a manufacturer for workmanship and knowing their trade. I've never regretted paying for quality, but I have regretted buying cheap gear to save money.
        -------------
        
        We must be the change we wish to see in the world. -Gandhi
        
        Do you really enjoy making yourself appear the fool? - Audiophilander 11:19:58 02/15/10 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: uh...no posted by Jazz Inmate on February 10, 2010 at 22:27:30
        
        > > > "I blame this sense of entitlement where you think everything that's worth owning should be cheap." < < <
        
        So, as an alternative to buying obviously outsourced products sold at a cheap price that provide a good value for cost ratio you'd say that it's okay for a "manufacturer" to purchase the same outsourced product in quantity that is being sold for a reasonable price, drop it into their own fancy case, slap on their highfalutin name and sell it for a premium price?
        
        Sorry dude, but as usual, your logic eludes me! ;^>
        
        > > > "Now yes, it's come to this. Companies from Runco to Lexicon have to rebadge Chinese-made products or go out of business. But it's beyond luxury items; it's the mindset that we must find a cheap deal for something to be worth buying instead of rewarding a manufacturer for workmanship and knowing their trade." < < <
        
        This isn't supposed to be a political site, but I think it's fair to say, regardless of where one stands on hot-button issues, that we've been wrecked by many years of unfair trade practices complicated by deficit spending (borrowing, to pay for wars which should not be prosecuted without tax increases, etc.) that has resulted in a depressed economy which only supports cheaper manufactured goods for most Americans. A/V is no different than other aspects of the national economy when it comes to making choices, but those who CAN afford better gear don't like being suckered and made to look foolish for buying repackaged, relabeled products.
        
        That, "my friend," is the bottom line.
        
        AuPh
        
        Here's a thread from six months ago that says exactly that - Jazz Inmate 10:52:04 01/22/10 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: "Lexicon announced a long time ago that they would OEM the Oppo." - Post the reference. posted by Audiophilander on January 22, 2010 at 10:01:01
        
        This is not "news" and this is not without precedent either, as Lexicon did not alter its RT-20 after OEMing it from Marantz. I can pull up many threads like this from mid-summer after Lexicon's announcement.
        
        Topic: Lexicon to launch an OPPO clone
        Posted: 25 Jul 2009 at 12:08pm
        the BD-30 is 7 times the oppo price!
        
        -------------
        
        We must be the change we wish to see in the world. -Gandhi
        http://www.smr-forums.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=1295 (Open in New Window)
    - RE: Audioholics is on the warpath - JimL 11:16:15 01/20/10 (1)
      Yes, I understand your point. However as noted it does appear that Lexicon didn't change any parts, at least according to the photos. And leaving aside possible damping of the chassis and re-routing of wiring, if there were no parts changes it is difficult to imagine a significant change in the sound - otherwise no manufacturer could put out a consistent product.
      - RE: Audioholics is on the warpath - Jazz Inmate 09:03:36 01/21/10 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Audioholics is on the warpath posted by JimL on January 20, 2010 at 11:16:15
        
        Maybe so, but the biggest mistake was failing to use the SE version of the Oppo. If a company is going to OEM a product for a higher-end market, the least it can do is use the better version of that product.
        -------------
        
        We must be the change we wish to see in the world. -Gandhi
- You didn't actually READ the article, did ya? - soundnut 05:05:57 01/19/10 (4)
  They examined every single component of the boards of both players, and they A/B tested every aspect of the audio performance.
  
  They are the same player. Lexicon just took a $500 player, slapped a new faceplate on it & marked it up to $3500.
  
  I would call that unethical, myself.
  
  Bobbo :-)
  - You have more faith in a reviewer on a smear campaign than I do NT - Jazz Inmate 08:39:02 01/19/10 (3)
    -------------
    
    We must be the change we wish to see in the world. -Gandhi
    - RE: You have more faith in a reviewer on a smear campaign than I do NT - soundnut 09:27:10 01/19/10 (2)
      The faith is in the evidence. The photos are identical, the parts are all identical, the A/B comparison charts of the lab measurements are identical... How much proof do you need?
      - RE: You have more faith in a reviewer on a smear campaign than I do NT - Eric B 13:38:39 01/27/10 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: You have more faith in a reviewer on a smear campaign than I do NT posted by soundnut on January 19, 2010 at 09:27:10
        
        He must have been a juror on the O.J. murder trial : )
      - "How much proof do you need?" The proof, as always, is in the listening - Jazz Inmate 09:58:45 01/19/10 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: You have more faith in a reviewer on a smear campaign than I do NT posted by soundnut on January 19, 2010 at 09:27:10
        
        Components that measure poorly can sound good, and vice versa. So it stands to reason that components that measure the same with a voltmeter can sound different.
        But now that I realize the Lexicon is based not on the Oppo BDP-83SE but on the standard edition, I am no longer in the mood to give Lexicon the benefit of the doubt.
        -------------
        
        We must be the change we wish to see in the world. -Gandhi
        
        Edits: 01/19/10
- Just look at the pics and read the description. - The Real Dick Hertz 13:11:08 01/18/10 (11)
  Nothing has been changed except the faceplate. Maybe something under the green circuit board does the Lexicon magic? Yeah, right.
  - Can you tell whether any of the resistors or other parts have been upgraded? - Jazz Inmate 17:10:22 01/18/10 (10)
    Or whether, for example, the stereo and 7.1 channels’ output muting circuits have been bypassed from those photos.
    
    Or whether dampening/grounding/isolation issues have been changed.
    
    Or any of a thousand other parameters that the photo and the Audioholics reviewer (who's on a smear campaign) can't easily ascertain.
    
    Didn't think so.
    -------------
    
    We must be the change we wish to see in the world. -Gandhi
    - Hadn't thought about the possibility... - The Real Dick Hertz 20:24:10 01/18/10 (9)
      ...there was $2000 worth of new resistors in the Lexicon unit. Did you compare the pictures of the two units? Did you look at the pics of the back panels? Did you compare the measurements of the two units? If you can find anything at all that makes the Lexicon worth $3000 more than the Oppo, please point it out.
      
      Edits: 01/18/10
      - RE: Hadn't thought about the possibility... - Jazz Inmate 21:25:26 01/18/10 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Hadn't thought about the possibility... posted by The Real Dick Hertz on January 18, 2010 at 20:24:10
        
        > > ...there was $2000 worth of new resistors in the Lexicon unit. Did you compare the pictures of the two units? Did you look at the pics of the back panels? Did you compare the measurements of the two units? < <
        
        Changes like those I previously asked you about would not affect the audio board topology, nor would they be visible in the picture. I thought you would understand that, but evidently you needed me to spell it out for you.
        
        > > If you can find anything at all that makes the Lexicon worth $3000 more than the Oppo, please point it out. < <
        
        The hobby we're in is called Audio. It involves LISTENING. I have not listened to the Lexicon so I can't say. You haven't either, yet you are willing to form a conclusion based on inconclusive evidence. When a high end engineer works on a component, sometimes hundreds or even thousands of hours of what audio designers call "voicing" is used to justify the final product and pricepoint. When we buy an audio component, we're not just paying for a bunch of parts but for the designer's expertise in deciding which parts to use and how to use them.
        
        That's why you pay $2.00 for a can of Ragu yet you pay $20.00 for a plate of spaghetti at your favorite Italian restaurant for what are essentially the same ingredients.
        -------------
        
        We must be the change we wish to see in the world. -Gandhi
      - IOW, the Lexicon is the A/V equivalent of a $3000 face lift. For some reason it reminds me of this... - Audiophilander 21:10:31 01/18/10 (7)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Hadn't thought about the possibility... posted by The Real Dick Hertz on January 18, 2010 at 20:24:10
        
        :O)
        
        Probably, but unless you've listened and decided it sounds no better than the Oppo - Jazz Inmate 21:27:27 01/18/10 (6)
        
        In Reply to: RE: IOW, the Lexicon is the A/V equivalent of a $3000 face lift. For some reason it reminds me of this... posted by Audiophilander on January 18, 2010 at 21:10:31
        
        you really aren't in a position to say.
        -------------
        
        We must be the change we wish to see in the world. -Gandhi
        
        You have a point there. - The Real Dick Hertz 10:28:24 01/19/10 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Probably, but unless you've listened and decided it sounds no better than the Oppo posted by Jazz Inmate on January 18, 2010 at 21:27:27
        
        I'm sure the fancy faceplate and the deeper blue lights make a significant improvement in the sound over the standard Oppo unit that's $3000 less. And if I was someone who bought the Lexicon unit, I'd think the same thing after extensive listening tests. After all, who wants to admit they got ripped off?
        
        I'm not evaluating the Lexicon BD-30 performance, but your obliviousness to this is reminiscent of the Wizard of Oz too. - Audiophilander 02:02:16 01/19/10 (4)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Probably, but unless you've listened and decided it sounds no better than the Oppo posted by Jazz Inmate on January 18, 2010 at 21:27:27
        
        I just can't decide whether your behavior is more like the humbug Wizard, the melted witch or Dorothy's little dog Toto. ;O)
        What I will say is this: If, and let me reiterate ...IF... Lexicon is dropping a player that they've sourced from Oppo or parent company BBK (the same Chinese manufacturer which supplies Oppo's $500 BDP-83) into a heavier chassis and then charging $3500 a pop for 'em without providing any noteworthy performance enhancements and modifications with higher quality parts then it is a deception that their potential customers should be clued in about.
        While it may be entirely legal for brand name labels to source their products from OEMs, repackage and charge whatever they want, it isn't ethical to deceive shoppers who think that they are buying the "best" bang for their high-end buck; that seems to be the consensus on most A/V sites, discussion boards and blogs as well. Of course, as always, YMMV; feel free to dissent.
        BTW, I'll wager that I've read a lot more on this developing story than you have so in that regard I'm probably a quite a bit better informed than you appear to be (from multiple sources). Do your homework, and then jump back into the discussion.
        Cheers,
        AuPh
        
        Edits: 01/19/10
        
        Ayre, Lexicon and Theta all announced months ago they were using the Oppo - Jazz Inmate 08:54:55 01/19/10 (3)
        
        In Reply to: RE: I'm not evaluating the Lexicon BD-30 performance, but your obliviousness to this is reminiscent of the Wizard of Oz too. posted by Audiophilander on January 19, 2010 at 02:02:16
        
        We already knew that.
        
        I'm not convinced the Audioholics dudes know what modifications look like on an audio board--know what Vishay resistors look like, for example. They know the board topology is the same--but everyone knew that before cracking open the Lexicon chassis because (again) Lexicon announced it was using the Oppo months ago. I'm also not convinced the potential dampening/isolation/grounding changes from the chassis have no impact on the sound. On some components you just put a shakti stone on the chassis or a set of Aurios underneath and it makes a big impact. That there is zero impact on audio, as Audioholics claims, to me says the reviewer probably isn't attuned to differences in sound, although I'd have to do a comparison to confirm.
        
        The Audioholics dudes acted like Lexicon broke the 10 commandments on what is a fairly common practice in audio. The rest of you joined the lynch mob. Sorry, but I'm more sober in my assessment. If that means I take insults from people like Hertz and you, whose judgment has not really impressed me in the past BTW, so be it.
        -------------
        
        We must be the change we wish to see in the world. -Gandhi
        
        Audioholics conducted scientific tests on both Oppo and Lexicon players; the performance was virtually identical. - Audiophilander 11:59:38 01/19/10 (2)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Ayre, Lexicon and Theta all announced months ago they were using the Oppo posted by Jazz Inmate on January 19, 2010 at 08:54:55
        
        Yes, everyone knew that the Oppo BDP-83 was going to be used by Ayers, Theta and Lexicon as a base player from which to build their own designs. I'm pretty sure that the logical assumption most A/V-philes would make is that performance would be ratcheted up by these high-end manufacturers with all sorts of modifications along with high quality parts as per the Nuforce edition along with proprietary firmware tweaks in addition to having a heavier case. That apparently has not occurred if the Audioholics testing is accurate.
        
        > > > "I'm also not convinced the potential dampening/isolation/grounding changes from the chassis have no impact on the sound." < < <
        
        Of course it "might" muffle a modest amount of internal noise assuming it was noticeable in the first place, ...but $3000 worth? Trust me, better component isolation can be achieved for a heck of a lot less. As this story unfolds it looks more and more like Lexicon may have gotten caught playing a shell game on their customers, the "shell" being a fancy face plate and a bought & paid label for THX certification (which is probably a scam as well).
        
        > > > "The Audioholics dudes acted like Lexicon broke the 10 commandments on what is a fairly common practice in audio." < < <
        
        OEM resourcing may be common practice, but given the growing outrage over this faux pas a better analogy might be the fabled money-changers being beaten from the high-end temple. ;O)
        
        Cheers,
        AuPh
        
        Yeah, so you've said - Jazz Inmate 12:53:06 01/19/10 (1)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Audioholics conducted scientific tests on both Oppo and Lexicon players; the performance was virtually identical. posted by Audiophilander on January 19, 2010 at 11:59:38
        
        The ear is ultimately the only instrument that matters when it comes to determining the quality of a component. If you think a voltmeter has all the answers for you, think again. Why would a Vishay resistor measure differently than other resistors, especially since you'd use the same resistor value for any you'd replace! Why would you expect different measurements? Sound is a different matter.
        
        > > OEM resourcing may be common practice, but given the growing outrage over this faux pas a better analogy might be the fabled money-changers being beaten from the high-end temple. ;O) < <
        
        Growing outrage on the internet is like growing tumbleweeds in the desert. I'd be shocked if any of you "outraged" consumers had bought the Lexicon, or had even been tempted to buy it. You're just looking to join a lynch mob. Now that I realize Lexicon based its BDP on the non-SE Oppo, I'm no longer in the mood to defend the company, but I'm certainly not impressed with Audioholics and their "scientific" tests that were about as scientific as a crucifixion.
        
        -------------
        
        We must be the change we wish to see in the world. -Gandhi
        
        "...tests that were about as scientific as a crucifixion." - Let he who is without sin cast the first Shakti Stone! (nt) - Audiophilander 16:27:41 01/19/10 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Yeah, so you've said posted by Jazz Inmate on January 19, 2010 at 12:53:06
        
        ;O)
RE: Lexicon busted passing Oppo off as a $3500 Blu-ray player - Ben Van Dyk 11:22:14 01/18/10 (0)
thanks I read it.some shady thx stuff.the new oppo must be made larger than the 980.Ive only seen pictures of it.my 980 is slimeline 1" tall.looks cheap.Im going to reinstall it with hdmi try using it for dvd.to see if it upgrades the picture.is the new one taller & made different,dont think ill ever get one but it looks a lot nicer than the 980
mch dvd-a mch sacd & blu-ray concerts rule.

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