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In Reply to: RE: LOTR has absolutely nothing to do with Pan's Lab posted by Jazz Inmate on June 29, 2008 at 10:41:00
But not in the sense you may think of.
The craft and digital work since loTR has left a new tradition in cinema making.
I find the heritage in this PL.
The brutality here lean to much to sadism for my taste.
" Mieux vaut une tęte bien faite qu'une tęte bien pleine."
Follow Ups:
Again, you haven't shown any link whatsoever between LOTR and PL. Guillermo del Toro's vision and direction is a completely separate issue. Nothing in LOTR remotely resembled the characters, story, effects or even the violence in PL. Maybe you need to watch it again. It's one of the most amazing films of the decade.
-------------Call it, friendo.
I think we speak not about the same issue.
I meant that like Star Wars who raised a fully new generation of films with that kind of effects, from DD to digital, blue screen tricks, LoTR gave birth to also a follower generation.
I did NOT meant the story or anything else, but just the way this film was made.
In my eyes the analogy is frappant.
" Mieux vaut une tęte bien faite qu'une tęte bien pleine."
But Patrick, CGI was common before LOTR. Blue screen tricks were being used even in the early '90s for films such as Jurassic Park and to put Clint Eastwood in JFK footage for "In the Line of Fire". Then a never-ending stream of crap was produced that had no story but just an excuse for CGI effects--dragons and such. What LOTR added was an epic storyline and humongous battle sequences. This did have an effect on the movies that followed, but LOTR was not the progenitor for all CGI, as you seem to think.
-------------Call it, friendo.
Not the progenitor no, but cher Jazz, the dam that break free.
I think Bambi B has put into words ( that courageous guy ) the essential...
AND it is also a question of dosage...
" Mieux vaut une tęte bien faite qu'une tęte bien pleine."
The influence of LOTR is in those epic scene's Jazz mentions.
SO many movies after LOTR have tried to copy and one up the scale of these epic scenes... especially battles and especially things like seeing a whole army of hundreds of thousands of soldiers and things like a sky full of arrows being shot.
But as for simply using CGI and creating fantasy worlds and the like... that horse was out of the barn long ago and I dont see LOTR as some kind of watershed in that regard.
As to Pans Labrynth... I appreciated the film and was taken by much of it but overall it was very stressful and I certainly didn't enjoy watching it (I'm pretty sure I was gnashing my teeth much of the time - at least clenching my jaw - and I often turned away).
"You can safely assume you have created God in your own image when he hates all the same people you do."
I don´t think so. I think that a kind of special atmosphere has see the light with the filming of loTR.
It is the same story in images over & over again.
It may be the result of the same digital imprint.
I may even think it is.
I don´t turn away at situations I like.
This film has a message but the cover ( envellope ) ain´t mine....
" Mieux vaut une tęte bien faite qu'une tęte bien pleine."
Del Toro wasn't following LOTR or Jackson or anything other than his own muse when he wrote and directed Pan's.
You obviously aren't fmailiar with PL's predecessor, The Devil's backbone. See post above.
I may refresh your memory, sweet Harmonia...
BUT again WHAT I did not like was the spirit of the digital effects.
And the film was too sadistic and voyeuristic in his own moral for MY taste.
But I also recognised its qualities.
" Mieux vaut une tęte bien faite qu'une tęte bien pleine."
- http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.mpl?forum=films&n=37919&highlight=the+devil+backbone&r=&session= (Open in New Window)
nt
The spirit of it. The whole scenery empeach me to dream, I could with " The Wizard of Oz "..
In small dose I have no problem but with half of the film...And then you see like in this particular film the actress, in this case that young girl, looking somewhere pretending to see the Pan or something else.
You know what?
It cries out loud : FAKE!
" Mieux vaut une tęte bien faite qu'une tęte bien pleine."
> > The spirit of it.> >
That's not a specific digital effect.
> > The whole scenery empeach me to dream, I could with " The Wizard of Oz "..
In small dose I have no problem but with half of the film...And then you see like in this particular film the actress, in this case that young girl, looking somewhere pretending to see the Pan or something else.
You know what?
It cries out loud : FAKE!> >
Um.... Pan was there. It was a guy in a suit. You didn't like it because you imagined it was a digital effect?
Look I don´t like digital effect in massive dose.
The guy in the suit, was it?
Or was it crafted?
It does not change anything anyway, the whole scenery was digital and untrue to my senses.
" Mieux vaut une tęte bien faite qu'une tęte bien pleine."
> > The guy in the suit, was it?> >
Yes.
> > Or was it crafted?> >
Creature suits are all crafted.
> > It does not change anything anyway,> >
It doesn't? You want to stand by this assertion of yours? "And then you see like in this particular film the actress, in this case that young girl, looking somewhere pretending to see the Pan or something else.
You know what?
It cries out loud : FAKE!"
She was looking at something that was actually there. Ironically this may not actually be the case in any number of your favorite films. It is often physically imposible to put the off camera person in position for an on camera actor to actually look at them in close ups. They are often just looking at a dot placed on the camera for an eyeline.
> > the whole scenery was digital and untrue to my senses.> >
Actually there was very little in the way of digital back grounds. It was almost all practical sets.
My favourit films are von bergaman and consort...
This is and remain digital effect shit.
When I look at King Kong III I get the feeling to vomit, when at one I feel the joy, so much of SE.
And I am certain that many people will get tired and are, of it, at some point.
How do you know that the little girl was looking at?
Do you were there?
Anyway the inconsistency was eclatant in those scenes.
" Mieux vaut une tęte bien faite qu'une tęte bien pleine."
> > My favourit films are von bergaman and consort...> >
Were there any close ups?
> > This is and remain digital effect shit.> >
Now you are just being willfully ignorant. what you thought was digital was not digital and you continue to call it digital and dislike it based on your willfull mischaracterization.
> > When I look at King Kong III I get the feeling to vomit, when at one I feel the joy, so much of SE.> >
We weren't talking about King Kong.
> > And I am certain that many people will get tired and are, of it, at some point.> >
You might want to consider just learning from your mistakes and moving on rather than hanging on to them.
> > How do you know that the little girl was looking at?> >
I did my home work. You might want to consider doing the same before criticizing movies based on your prejudice against CG.
> > Do you were there?> >
No.
http://www.panslabyrinth.com/gallery.html
> > Anyway the inconsistency was eclatant in those scenes.> >
I did not see them. But then I was not watching under the same presumptions as you did with the same prejudices against CG as you have. If anything you should learn something about those prejudices and how they can mislead your perceptions. i tried earlier to lead you to this awarness without rubbing your nose it your gross errors. But you had to hang on to your mistakes like a pitbull.
Look, it is so easy...You can submerge yourself in the fantasy world of SE of today, I can not.
You are not the only one, and so I am also not the only one who can´t.
PS: Bergman love digital filming and his last one was in fact done so, now it has nothing to do with Digital effects...
" Mieux vaut une tęte bien faite qu'une tęte bien pleine."
I can only hope that you might rethink your prejudices about CG. Given that those prejudices and not any actual CG seems to have interfered with your ability to enjoy Pan's Laberynth.
Did I enjoy it? Well...
" Mieux vaut une tęte bien faite qu'une tęte bien pleine."
It is clear you did not enjoy the movie. But I think you may be missing my point. You will not find a more vocal critic of bad CG than myself and as an insider I can tell you that there is a movement in genre films, in the business of making genre films that is leading to this massive onslaught of bad effects that are ruining genre films. BUT my criticism is not based on a prejudice against CG in general but on the actual quality of the content of genre films and a knowledge of how these films evolve. When one bases their criticism of films, CG and CG in films on prejudice rather than actual content one will tend to throw out the proverbial baby with the bath water. Pan's Laberynth was the exception not the rule. Many of the bad genre movies with bad CG are being dictated by the guys who do the bad CG. Many of these films are asigned a visual effects supervisor the same time they are asigned a director.On many of these films the visual supervisor has as much creative power as the director. The result is self-serving gross misguidence from the visual effects department. That was not the case with Pan's Laberynth. This was an independent film and a director's vision. The CG was used with taste and for the purpose of telling the story. It was the proverbial baby not the bath water for genre films.
I understand that CG are like drugs. The one that use to be working yesterday has ruined the last year picture for ever, as we get use to it CG) and can see through it now without pity.
This picture will obtain the " classic " rank.
And that is bad.
Anyway I can not connect to this over dose, and I may have develop an allergy.
Pans Labyrinth, also has its good moment, and the director is certainly a fine one.
After his Devil Backbone I was eager to see his newest creation, and yes I was deceived.
But the CG is only a apart of it.
But as you wrote " ruining genre films " one can I say more than this...
I will wait for a more convincing show, beside the fact that genre film as you put it is not the one I seek to see.
Not as long as it eat out every real creativity.
One film I could see back then was Star wars I and II, there was a chilish story but you could emerge in the line.
Now I will enjoy Le Diner des cons for the fourth time and there, guaranty not CG...
" Mieux vaut une tęte bien faite qu'une tęte bien pleine."
...they may draw on related software resources but the ideas that animate the films from inside are utterly different.
Because I agree too...
Ok you call it software I, the spirit of the generation descending from LoTR.
VISUALLY SPEAKING.
" Mieux vaut une tęte bien faite qu'une tęte bien pleine."
I think I see what you mean about effects and maybe even set design, but Del Toro has a unique vision.
-------------Call it, friendo.
You come nearer.
Also DT seems to oxcillate between Horror, and Reality, a genre I do not feel well.
But it is very well crafted.
Like the scene when he drink the schnaps and it come out from his wound or when he got that bullet and his eyes Like Dracula are full blood...
Then another thing I do not like...He put the plain horror on one side, the Nationnalist ( Franco ) but the truth is that the Republican made as much massacres.
Even if of course Faschism, is the beast!
But don´t trust the Pan as nothing is like it seems to be, but that don´t mean it is against you....
" Mieux vaut une tęte bien faite qu'une tęte bien pleine."
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