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108.220.52.9
In Reply to: RE: The Shape of Water II the creature reads the paper while Sally Hawkins complains about eating fish again posted by PhilJ on January 30, 2018 at 16:08:51
The Trailer made me Want to see it, that doesn't usually happen.
Follow Ups:
...I even saw the 2 terrible sequels.
This one was about a better-looking cousin.
and I think the director even said that. As in Pacific Rim, he is not adverse to taking very old monster movies and recasting them.
In this case, there are also elements of cold war spy movies, and of course there is a big element of old fashioned love story. The 1960s are reconstructed with great skill (at least the movie version of the 1960s). I thought this was great, as I posted below.
Are you serious??? It is a present time propaganda. And quite primitive in addition to that.
Edits: 01/31/18
Sorry for enjoying the movie. I guess that makes me an evil liberal or something.
It doesn't make you any evil liberal at all. The movie is pleasant to watch and enjoyable. Stalin era Russian propaganda movies were nicely made and perfectly watchable with much better acting than almost anything Hollywood ever produced. Heck even Goebbels Nazi movies when taken out of the context were quite good. A craft is a craft.
Of course if you think the movie was about love without barriers than there is not much to talk about.
...it was as if we saw different productions. You're still at it so it's pretty clear it has touched a nerve with you. Soooo...would it be possible for you to provide a an articulate and detailed description of what you find so objectionable? How is it comparable to Nazi and Stalin era propaganda? How does it differ? What do you believe its true purpose to be and who or what is behind this true purpose?
...it was as if we saw different productions. You're still at it so it's pretty clear it has touched a nerve with you. Soooo...would it be possible for you to provide a an articulate and detailed description of what you find so objectionable? How is it comparable to Nazi and Stalin era propaganda? How does it differ? What do you believe its true purpose to be and who or what is behind this true purpose?he
The movie is cheaply made even for Del Toro standards and feels rushed to reflect upon the recent political development as soon as they could get it out.That cold war era placement of the plot is just a convenient metaphor. All the white american male characters are racist scumbags, weasels or just murderous psychopaths.I didn't notice any exceptions. Even the Russian spy is preferable to them. How would you describe the "typical middle class family" portrait as pictured in the movie? Clearly , the only entertainment the wifey is getting is the bang upstairs. It's all she waits and lives for. Don't even get me started on kids. Than, there is the car, the "American Dream" which surely deserves its fate in the end.
I'm sure non of you will recognize yourself and your American middle class aspirations in this portrait but it is there,clear as a bell.
Now set it against those caring, sympathetic, lovable other characters. Most probably foreign origin abandoned mute girl (likely mutilated by white molester methinks),Righteous Russian immigrant and spy, warm hearted movie theater owner offering free tickets with thick immigrant accent,smart and energetic black girl , the most resolute of them all, how predictable. Finaly, a nice white guy all the women (except those stupid American bitches of course)would love to fall in love with , nope he is a gay unfortunately. Trashed by his own and only accepted by the discriminated minorities. Than, there is the elusive creature which I'm convinced must be transgender no less.
Do you recognize your movie??
Let's see if I got this as you intended:
1. You believe the film has poor production values.
2. You believe the film negatively portrays traditional American middle class (western civilization?) values and gender roles.
3. You believe the film inappropriately celebrates non-traditional values and gender role models and maybe secular relativism.
4. #2 & #3 are culturally damaging.
You previously likened the film to Nazi and Stalinist propaganda but you haven't described who or what is behind the the propaganda in the film and what is its purpose.
You also wrote:
"I'm sure non of you will recognize yourself and your American middle class aspirations in this portrait but it is there,clear as a bell. " From this should I assume that you don't consider yourself part of the American middle class or even an American?
"You previously likened the film to Nazi and Stalinist propaganda but you haven't described who or what is behind the the propaganda in the film and what is its purpose"
I didn't link anything to nothing. I just noted that propaganda movies even from such despicable regimes as Stalinist's Russia and Nazis were not void of artistic values, interesting plots or good acting despite underlying message. That's why they were so effective in influencing the masses.
I think its the weakest del Toro movie so far. Certainly far below usual Oscar level, but in current political/cultural climate I would not be surprised if it takes a bunch.
What is a secular relativism :?)
You operate on such sophisticated level verbally and can't decipher a rather simple movie Steve?
I'm sure you know all the answers and perfectly got all the angles of the movie in the instant, even before you rolled out the proof of your parents investment in your higher education.
warm regards, W
You wrote:
"You operate on such sophisticated level verbally and can't decipher a rather simple movie Steve?
I've "deciphered" the movie to my satisfaction. I'm attempting to "decipher" your perspective on it and why you seem to think it's some kind of sly, covert jab at traditional values or whatever it is about it that bothers you so much. Maybe not possible in a bulletin board format.
What bothers me most is an intellectual dishonesty of people of your caliber. You (as a group) seem to constantly violate that "Noblesse oblige" rule and it's sad because I suspect you're phd and a scholar, and there is simply no possibility that you're not aware of it.
Have a nice one.
...LOL. I think I now understand your position. Movies like this and other degenerate cultural artifacts of our time should be suppressed by those who know better and prevented from reaching those who don't know better. And conversely, the "good" should be promoted. IOW, "elites" have an obligation to society.....and at the moment, they're failing. Above my pay grade for sure!
Gooday!
Oh no, not at all. I meant that people of knowledge are expected (obligated) to adhere to higher standards that mere regular folks. I.e you serve the truth and not manipulate it for the cause. Is this that much to ask from the wise ones?
...I see a well acted, entertaining Oscar caliber film with period heroines and villains but you see truth manipulated for a cause.
You sound like Wonka railing against a liberal film that elevates minorities.
...I see a well acted, entertaining Oscar caliber film with period heroines and villains ..."
I never said that the movie is lacking those elements (except maybe an Oscar caliber weight of the work )I even have an idea for the sequel.
Two rival drug gangs populated entirely by minorities and immigrants , some of them freshly from Muslim countries (why not) compete for which one the creature will work, smuggling drugs underwater. The community those gangs are from will be portrayed with all the stereotypes available at the disposal shall I list them? The whole operations are overseen by greedy Jews because of course the gang bosses are too stupid to handle the money. Now , Sally is taken a hostage to convince/force the creature to cooperate. The threat is that she will be gang raped by those needy Muslim immigrants. The only smart person in the assembly is a white chemists who mix the drugs (again because nobody else is smart enough ) and whose wife would be gang raped by of course those needy guys from the middle east otherwise. He will be essential in helping Sally. All of this surely in the background of burgeoning romance between Sally and the creature . There are twists and changes of action etc. etc necessarily with few sequences of fat ,spiteful and really stupid feminine social workers/warriors being used by unscrupulous gangs. At the end the US Cavalry of smart and brave FBI agents arrives and clears the field from the scum and dutiful ICE agents deport the remains.
Now I'm sure the talented director of Del Toro caliber would make you forget all that background story and focus only on uplifting romance without barriers. An Oscar script no doubt about it.
Edits: 02/02/18 02/02/18
.
...the Post.
...
Sold Out, this several weeks into its release.
Seems it got a Slow Burn Rep that is really building.
I'll see it one way or another.
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