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In Reply to: RE: Well, this thread kicked off with statistics about the entire installed base of game consoles posted by Jazz Inmate on July 02, 2007 at 21:41:03
>>No, I don't think adopting or being happy with blu-ray makes me a fanboy or a cheerleader. <<
Oh, I agree 100%. Just being an adopter doesn't push someone into fanboyism or cheerleader status. It's the "extolling its virtues" thing you mentioned in your previous post that makes someone a cheerleader :-)
>>While it may seem like a nuisance to you that you can get The Producers on blu-ray in Japan, but only on HD-DVD in the US, that is the studios' legal rights to distribute the film. Studios, like record labels, ought to be encouraged to find ways to protect their intellectual property as long as it doesn't compromise performance or quality.<<
If all you care about are the latest Hollywood blockbusters, fad films, and endless reissues of Hollywood "classics," I suppose your simplistic view of the situation would fit.
The facts are, however, that we live in a global economy, with the beginnings of global culture. Region Coding smacks of a provincial marketing model, not from the standpoint of controlling lawful distribution as you posit, but from the standpoint of limiting access to cultural material. Should a Polish-speaking person living in the US be required to fly to Poland just to watch a Polish-language movie? Yes, he can order a fully-legitimate, licensed and studio-blessed copy from overseas, because we live in a global economy, but due to provincial Region Coding, he may not be able to watch it. Instead, he would have to hope that some media distribution company has an interest in releasing the Polish film outside of its primary market. The market for Polish films is not very big outside of Poland, so the likelihood of this happening is nil.
Again, I understand that people who are only interested in Hollywood's Greatest Hits may not care about this, but let me try to put it in terms that you may be able to identify with:
What if Sony had implemented Region Coding in SACD? It was actually discussed, and there were people pushing for this. Region Coding in SACD would mean that none of the JSACDs and European imports you currently own would be playable on your SCD-1. I suspect that if this were the situation, SACD would have been a non-starter for you. Can you not see how this could make blu-ray a non-starter for some people, despite its technological potential?
>>But beyond that, quality should be what HDTV is all about and quality equals data rates and data rates equal storage capacity. Blu-ray is simply is superior.<<
Superior on paper, yes. So far, the bulk of the superiority claims are coming from blu-ray fanboys and cheerleaders. Opinions that appear more objective seem unanimous that little to no difference can be seen between HD DVD and blu-ray at this point. I mentioned to you before that it is too early to declare blu-ray the winner. You denied doing this, but here you are doing it again. I still say it's too early to make such a call.
>>Even DUI sold his toshiba.<<
I can't BELIEVE you're using DUI as an example! LOL!
Follow Ups:
> > If all you care about are the latest Hollywood blockbusters, fad films, and endless reissues of Hollywood "classics," I suppose your simplistic view of the situation would fit. < <That isn't all I'm interested in but you need to face the fact that the major studios and their blockbusters are going to drive the direction of HDTV formats.
> > The facts are, however, that we live in a global economy, with the beginnings of global culture. < <
That's fine, but piracy is a legit problem, costing the studios and recording industry million$. We may yet find ourselves in a utopia where everyone pays an equal price for content and shares in it across the globe. But until that magic, majestic moment happens, studios should be encouraged to use any tools at their disposal to protect their intellectual property in the regions where they own it.
> > What if Sony had implemented Region Coding in SACD? It was actually discussed, and there were people pushing for this. Region Coding in SACD would mean that none of the JSACDs and European imports you currently own would be playable on your SCD-1. < <
I may have bought a player capable of playing JSACDs or I may not have adopted, but let's stop engaging in what-ifs and talk about what is. Blu-rays, like SACDs, are not subject to regional encoding in Japan. You can order The Producers blu-ray from Japan and enjoy it on your PS3.
> > I suspect that if this were the situation, SACD would have been a non-starter for you. Can you not see how this could make blu-ray a non-starter for some people, despite its technological potential? < <
I could, except that the type of regional encoding you are against has not been implemented and if the studios ever feel they need to implement it because HDTV has truly become embraced by the mass market, you can bet your arse there will be HD-DVD II that provides the means for regional encoding to the exact same extent as blu-ray. In other words, this is a complete non-issue in terms of the observations between blu-ray and hd-dvd.
> > Superior on paper, yes. So far, the bulk of the superiority claims are coming from blu-ray fanboys and cheerleaders. < <
See, this is where I'm not understanding you. Are you saying that 24-bit 48 kHz lossless PCM sounds as good as DolbyTruHD? Because I have stood in Dolby Labs in SF and listened to the difference, and I can tell you there is a difference. Are you saying that data storage capacity and data rates don't matter? That it's just a lie propagated by blu-ray adopters?
> > I mentioned to you before that it is too early to declare blu-ray the winner. You denied doing this, but here you are doing it again. I still say it's too early to make such a call. < <
I said it was too early to declare a winner and say blu-ray has killed HD-DVD, but it is not too early to say that blu-ray is the superior format, both for consumers and for content providers/studios. As you yourself have pointed out, superior formats have not always won in the past.
> > I can't BELIEVE you're using DUI as an example! LOL! < <
I can't believe he figured out the advantages of blu-ray over hd-dvd before you did!
-------------"I have found that if you love life, life will love you back." -Arthur Rubinstein (1887-1982)
> > That isn't all I'm interested in but you need to face the fact that the major studios and their blockbusters are going to drive the direction of HDTV formats. < <
I wonder where you got the idea that I ever disputed this. It certainly wasn't in anything I've written.
> > studios should be encouraged to use any tools at their disposal to protect their intellectual property in the regions where they own it. < <
I totally disagree with your stance on this issue. 'Nuff said.
> > I could, except that the type of regional encoding you are against has not been implemented < <
You're wrong. It has indeed been implemented, exactly in the fashion I deplore. Here's a list someone put together showing some of the discs on the market, and whether they are playback-restricted by region. By and large, the older, less desirable releases are not locked out, the newer ones are.
> > Blu-rays, like SACDs, are not subject to regional encoding in Japan. You can order The Producers blu-ray from Japan and enjoy it on your PS3. < <
You're wrong. Region Coding has indeed been implemented in Japan. The thing is that the blu-ray Region Code for Japan is the same as for the US (Region A). So yes, you can take a disc coded for Japan and play it in a US player, but you can't take a disc coded and locked-out for Japan/US and play it in a European player.
> > you can bet your arse there will be HD-DVD II that provides the means for regional encoding to the exact same extent as blu-ray. < <
I wouldn't bet that. There was a REASON why Region Coding was not implemented in HD DVD, and it was not a technical reason. The current HD DVD players enforce legacy DVD-V region coding, forgoshsakes! Even if a mythical HD DVD II with Region Coding should emerge, one can always choose not to buy into it. The cork is already out of the bottle on HD DVD though.
Nevertheless, you specifically said that we shouldn't engage in what-ifs, and here you are doing it.
> > See, this is where I'm not understanding you. Are you saying that 24-bit 48 kHz lossless PCM sounds as good as DolbyTruHD? < <
I'm afraid I'm not understanding you, because this sentence makes absolutely no sense. Are you comparing identical lossless PCM to lossless PCM and saying there is a difference???? Or are you comparing an apple to an orange, and saying they are different? Of course they are! Please clarify the point you are trying to get across.
> > Are you saying that data storage capacity and data rates don't matter? That it's just a lie propagated by blu-ray adopters? < <
No, that's not what I'm saying. Try reading what I wrote again.
> > I can't believe he figured out the advantages of blu-ray over hd-dvd before you did! < <
Well, let's see - you've called him a troll in the past, and pretty much accused him of making stuff up. But now you prepared to believe what he posts just because it fits your biases? That's quite a shift in viewpoint! :-)
> > > > That isn't all I'm interested in but you need to face the fact that the major studios and their blockbusters are going to drive the direction of HDTV formats. < <
I wonder where you got the idea that I ever disputed this. It certainly wasn't in anything I've written. < <
It's not that you ever disputed it; it's that you have open disdain for the blockbusters as if it's not tied in at all to what you want. I'm just reminding you that it is tied in to what you want.
> > > > studios should be encouraged to use any tools at their disposal to protect their intellectual property in the regions where they own it. < <
I totally disagree with your stance on this issue. 'Nuff said. < <
Well, out of curiosity, where do you draw the line? Sharing between geographical regions where different studios own different titles is ok. So why have studio distribution at all? Is piracy ok? Where are you drawing the line? You can't say regional encoding is unfair without advocating some degree of lawlessness in terms of content ownership.
> > You're wrong. It has indeed been implemented, exactly in the fashion I deplore. Here's a list someone put together showing some of the discs on the market, and whether they are playback-restricted by region. By and large, the older, less desirable releases are not locked out, the newer ones are. < <
But those newer ones are all available in NA, so it's a nonissue.
> > You're wrong. Region Coding has indeed been implemented in Japan. The thing is that the blu-ray Region Code for Japan is the same as for the US (Region A). So yes, you can take a disc coded for Japan and play it in a US player, but you can't take a disc coded and locked-out for Japan/US and play it in a European player. < <
Ok, I'm wrong, but I can play the disc, so again, it's a nonissue.
> > I wouldn't bet that. There was a REASON why Region Coding was not implemented in HD DVD, and it was not a technical reason. < <
Exactly. And it's one of the reasons that only one studio has come out fully supporting HD-DVD (for now) where the rest will never exclusively support it.
> > > > See, this is where I'm not understanding you. Are you saying that 24-bit 48 kHz lossless PCM sounds as good as DolbyTruHD? < <
I'm afraid I'm not understanding you, because this sentence makes absolutely no sense. Are you comparing identical lossless PCM to lossless PCM and saying there is a difference???? < <
Nope. DolbyTruHD involves an algorithm that compresses the code and requires less space on the disc. They may market it as lossless, but lossless PCM is different.
> > Or are you comparing an apple to an orange, and saying they are different? Of course they are! Please clarify the point you are trying to get across. < <
The point I am trying to get across is that greater disc capacity will let you have better quality.
> > > > Are you saying that data storage capacity and data rates don't matter? That it's just a lie propagated by blu-ray adopters? < <
No, that's not what I'm saying. Try reading what I wrote again. < <
I've been reading every post in this thread. I keep saying that blu-ray provides greater storage capacity and is therefore capable of greater quality and you keep saying it's just hype and that I'm a fanboy and cheerleader. I am trying to get you to acknowledge that there are features of blu-ray that do make it superior to HD-DVD regardless of hype or cheerleading, and the storage capacity issue is a no-brainer.
> > Well, let's see - you've called him a troll in the past, and pretty much accused him of making stuff up. But now you prepared to believe what he posts just because it fits your biases? That's quite a shift in viewpoint! < <
Well actually I was just kidding around. I was pretty amused when DUI said he sold his Toshiba. But yeah, if he's seen the light I'd think everyone should!
-------------"I have found that if you love life, life will love you back." -Arthur Rubinstein (1887-1982)
> > > It's not that you ever disputed it; it's that you have open disdain for the blockbusters as if it's not tied in at all to what you want. < < <
I have an open disdain for most blockbusters, I'll admit it. My wife likes them a bit, but I could do without seeing 90+% of them.
> > > But those newer ones are all available in NA, so it's a nonissue. < < <
So anything that doesn't effect you personally doesn't count? BTW, there are Blu-ray discs coming out in Europe, that aren't here.
> > > Nope. DolbyTruHD involves an algorithm that compresses the code and requires less space on the disc. They may market it as lossless, but lossless PCM is different. < < <
The difference is that uncompressed PCM takes up more space. Both are lossless.
> > > The point I am trying to get across is that greater disc capacity will let you have better quality. < < <
That's an assumption, not a given.
Jack
Yeah, as I said earlier, blockbusters may not be our cup of tea, but they do tend to dictate the direction of the industry. Especially in matters of format.
As for the current implementation of regional encoding, it's a nonissue if it doesn't affect me, you or anyone else.
As for DolbyTruHD, as I said, I was invited to listen to this and to the uncompressed PCM in the mixing room of Dolby Labs in San Francisco, as Sony was preparing to author a demo blu-ray disc. There was a difference and to my ears (and the ears of the Sony audio guy), the unmolested PCM was better. DolbyTruHD does compress the PCM and uncompressing it requires another step in the D-> A.
If greater disc capacity can allow 7.1 PCM where HD-DVD requires greater compression, I'm all for it.
-------------"I have found that if you love life, life will love you back." -Arthur Rubinstein (1887-1982)
> > > Yeah, as I said earlier, blockbusters may not be our cup of tea, but they do tend to dictate the direction of the industry. Especially in matters of format. < < <
That must be why they lost money last quartet, and are shutting down some stores.
> > > As for the current implementation of regional encoding, it's a nonissue if it doesn't affect me, you or anyone else. < < <
But is DOES effect me, and it certainly effects Europeans, that's the whole point.
I can inport HD DVDs from Europe that I might not be able to with BD. Europeans (Aussies too) can increase their collections by inporting HD DVDs from the US, that aren't available there.
I'll take your word on the PCM, but I'll leave the high end audio for my stereo. Movie sound is secondary for me. It certainly won't be the biggest selling point for the masses. Do you think they'll tell the difference with their $200 Bose surround sound?
I couldn't care less about 7.1.
Jack
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