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I know this is a audio forum but I am thinking of getting a flat panel tv for my 24' X 18' living room this weekend. I know the basics about LCD vs Plasma but wanted to know if anyone had any input for me. Brand, size relative to my room, type, etc. Thanks for any and all input.
Follow Ups:
...below is a link to a review of the new generation Pioneer plasmas I was telling you about. It will be a year or two at least before the other brands catch up.
.
Plus read the reviews. You don't need 1080p until you get to 60" or larger. Your eye cannot resolve the difference unless you sit unreasonably close.
Just this past week or so some Pioneer retailers have received the new 50" 1080p units (non-elite model = 5010FD and runs about $1000 more than the 768p unit @ street prices). While I agree with Charlie that at normal viewing differences there probably is not a "pixel count" reason to have 1080p at the 50" size, there are three real benefits in this case:
(i) because of the way the new pioneer's work, the denser pixel structure provides higher contrast ratios (something like 20,000:1 as opposed to 16,000:1 for the 768 unit), at least as reported;
(ii) on the 768 panel, if you hook up a scaler with an exact pixel match (768x1365) to avoid processing in the monitor, it defaults to a computer input as opposed to a video input setting, which bypasses a lot of the set's control features. With the 1080p unit, you can set your scaler to deliver a 1080p (or even 24/1080p signal - which is then displayed as 72/1080p) and should have pixel perfect operation w/ the video controls; and
(iii) who knows, you may like to sit really close, so that the pixel structure of the 768 unit would be visible (but I think that would be something like 4-5 feet away).
The elite counterparts (with the same panel) will be coming shortly too, but they have a different distribution channel and the street pricing is therefore significantly more -- not sure it would be worth it -- not really sure of all the step-up features they offer (a longer warranty and additional calibration features, if I remember correctly).
Hi Charles,
I keeping my eye out for those. Would you think that the regular Pioneer 1080P (new) has the same contrast ratio as the Elite version?
Dennis
< < Would you think that the regular Pioneer 1080P (new) has the same contrast ratio as the Elite version? > >
I don't know for sure, but would assume that it does. I cannot imagine that Pioneer uses different "glass" for each model, as the tooling costs are incredible for that type of product.
I would suggest looking at www.avsforum.com . There are a lot of knuckleheads there when it comes to audio, but for video, they tend to be pretty detail-oriented. If you use the search function, you should be able to get a definitive answer as to the differences between the regular Pioneers and the Elites.
As one of those (sometimes) knuckleheads, the glass is the same. According to the industry guys who were at the Pioneer line shows, the only real differences are some underlying electronics/calibration options, and the longer warranty (and cosmetics, of course). The general consensus over there is that the price difference (especially for actual "street" prices) does not justify going "elite."
I would go with a decent but not too expensive CRT or DLP (larger display sizes also) technology and wait for the SED and FED technologies (maybe OLED too) to come out. SEDs have been delayed but could be as soon as sometime next year. As far as size, brand, etc. that's really up to you but I think 1080i/720p is quite sufficient unless you will be sitting quite close.
My 53" Panasonic 53x54 CLEARLY beats my Samsung 56" DLPs for color quality, and lack of motion artifacts. All of $1450 4 years ago. RELIABLE as hell.
just picked up a hitachi p42t501-WOW-what a picture
Whatever you get, use Avia to calibrate the color. You might like to use it about every six months.
I've yet to see ANY flat screen that can hold a candle to good old CRT technology. You know, like they've been making for the last 50 years or so.
Unfortunately, the deal of the century just dried up. As long as 34" was big enough, and as long as you didn't HAVE to hang it on the wall, the Sony XBR970 was only $1000 and kicked the crap out of any flat screen I've seen yet.
You can get fooled with a lot of demo setups. It's not hard to get a good looking picture with a half-assed LCD or plasma when everything is just so. But when watching with a wide variety of source material and lighting conditions, you'll find that most flat screens pretty much suck. I really dislike LCD's. They are fine for computer monitors, but pretty much suck with motion, and also for watching movies in the dark. If all you watch is daytime TV shows, they might be barely acceptable.
The only bright spot on the horizon is the new line of Pioneer plasmas. They were announced at the January CES and are supposed to be shipping now. If they are everything that is claimed for them, they should be about in the same range (picture-wise) as a good CRT. Plus they are still being made. Plus they go up to 50" or 60" (if that is important to you). Plus you can hang them on the wall (as we have all been brainwashed into thinking is ultra-important). If you have to have a flat-screen, that is probably the only thing I would look at.
There was a super-promising technology called SED, but production plans were recently canceled after a licensing fee disagreement. So for the foreseeable future, I think the new generation Pioneer plasmas are by far your best bet.
i just moved from a panny crt w/s hdtv to a hitachi plasma-
the quality has improved to the point of being even inho-
i love my hitachi
.....I think it is fair to say the people who buy screens larger than 34” CRT’s do so because 34” isn’t big enough when larger screens are available.
Both my kids (13 & 11) have widescreen flat CRT’s BUT much prefer to watch one the larger plasma screens around the house.
I have a 26” LCD monitor for my PC BUT I think that a CRT has a slightly better picture BUT I have the LCD because of the large screen/small footprint.
I don’t think a CRT is better than a good plasma at all but I doubt we agree on what amps sound best either. :o)
For me, watching a 55” screen is way more entertaining and enjoyable than watching a 34” screen of any type.
I’d recommend the guy go for a screen of 50 inches plus and look at models from Panasonic, Pioneer, Fujitsu & Hitachi. I certainly wouldn’t recommend a set I haven’t seen .
Lastly, I don’t have any screens hanging on the wall and I don’t have any plans to do so in the foreseeable future.
Smile
Sox
I am early adopter of hd, with a 1999 Sony 34" set. (They also, at the time, built a 36")
I have never seen a HD set that can top mine, and it stil has a great picture.
The only complaint is the damn thing is 200 pounds.
Gene
Vacuum Tubes were made for audio, solid state for computers, please don't mix them.
.
I put 14 2" ball casters around the bottom of my 34XBR SONY HD TV
so I could move it around as needed. I could even push it around on carpet!
The more casters the lower the weight on each wheel.
I put most of the casters under the front and front-side area where
the tube is the heaviest.
See problem solved.
GTF
Yikes, and i hooked up my tube amp to my computer today!!!!
Please report to the police in the morning :)
Vacuum Tubes were made for audio, solid state for computers, please don't mix them.
LCD's have a slow turn on/off time, at least compared to plasmas. Most plasma have a pixel switching time of about 6 milliseconds, whereas most LCD's have switching times of 12 to 15. The latest models have switching times equivalent to Plasmas, though it is good to check before purchasing.
For the slower times, watching fast action, say the NBA finals, gives a ghostly after image, a kind of 'swoosh' effect. Very irritating for me.
LCD's are generally brighter, but have lower black levels, and so ultimate detail is not as good as many plasmas. LCD's do look very good on a brightly lit showroom floor, however. At home, where light levels are lower I prefer a plasma. The latest plasmas are achieving very high black levels, but not quite as good as the best CRTs. Panasonic has the best black levels, IIRC, with Pioneer right on their tails.
As others have noted, plasmas have issues at higher altitudes, and the pressurized gasses will make a 'hissing' sound. They consume more electricity than an LCD, and needs about 2 to 3 inches of clearance all around for cooling, a factor which killed many early plasma sets when interior decorators had them inset into a wall.
Also be aware of the role of economic politics. Panasonic went into plasmas very early and I remember talking to an executive there over 17 years ago and he told me that it would take Panasonic a decade to have acceptable plasma models. Sharp, a leader in LCD technology, holds many patents in that area. Sony does not like paying royalties to any one else, so until they developed a few key patents in the LCOS technology, they almost avoided flat screens. Hitachi, IIRC, also holds a few key patents there also. Samsung has the contract to build all of Sony's LCD sets, so guess how that affected their own designs.
At one point in time, 25% of the world's production of CRT sets was a Sony. However, Hitachi built 90% of the CRT tubes for television sets. I recently read where Hitachi just purchased an LCD or plasma factory in Japan, in an attempt to be a major player in OEM'ing the flat screens.
These days no major Japanese company even bothers to import a CRT set. Even Panasonic has discontinued VCR distribution in the US, and most other companies have severely reduced offerings.
The bottom line is competition is very intense and it pays to shop around. New improved models are appearing almost as fast as computers were in the great speed race. Places like Sam's Club and Costco have a excellent offering of models and at great prices.
Oh yeah, avoid the Philips. I believe they recently had a 100% recall on all of their plasmas.
Stu
Stu,
I would add Panasonic to your avoid list.
Nothing wrong with their sets, but from what I heard, they have no return policy, just a service policy. SO if a set is dead out of the box, you HAVE to get it serviced unless the dealer chooses to supply you a new one out of their expense.
They seem to be the only brand with such a policy.
I didn't realize other companies had an exchange policy. If that is so that's a new one for me. Costco has a store policy of exchanges for up to three years, IIRC.
I do know towards the end, Sony computer monitors were not repaired and problem sets went to a clearing center and repaired. You got what ever set they sent back.
My experience with Philips goes back to the mid 80's when their severe issues with their RPTV sets made them shut down their North American company, abandoning their many customers and dealers. The Hi-Res forum abounds with horror stories about servicing their SACD machines. While the vast majority of Japanese manufacturers are very good on QC and longevity of product life, Philips, in recent years and in my experience, has been fairly dismal.
Stu
I used to own a Sony XBR CRT, and now I own the FHD-1. No comparison...the FHD-1 spanks the CRT...I mean spanks the CRT. The only thing probably the CRT did better was black levels, but frankly, to me, not being a videophile, black levels are good enough.
"HD Made Easy". This is a very good primer of comparing different technologies (plasma, LCD, rear projection), pros and cons, and rating different brands and models for each. Ratings compare HD and DVD performance, sound quality, features, and much more. Also has extensive section of buyer tips and various connecting services. A valuable comprehensive read.Try the library. If you can't get a back issue, you can find this info somewhere on their website.
Along with AVSForum, Cnet.com should be very helpful.
http://www.cnet.com/
I recently did a bunch of research on this for a friend who wanted a new TV, and learned--
if you get an LCD, make sure it has a 120 Hz refresh rate.
that while shiny black or silver bezels can make for attractive furniture, they're annoying as hell when watching TV, at least to me, and that matte black bezels are currently not very common.
that plasmas can be great mirrors, even while watching TV.
replacing the power cord, even with a lowly Volex, will at minimum garner improved color saturation.
definitely try to see Hitachi and Mitsubishi TVs: Hitachi for color reproduction, and Mitsu for detail.
AVSForum -- for more than you ever wanted to know, LOL.
__________________
Just bought a 46' 1080P flatpanel (46131), room size 17x22x12. We sit about 10' away and consider it a great fit, size wise. Doesn't get all the press as the "S" brands, but a very good to excellent performer.
How are the inputs to switch.
I remember say 7-8 years ago looking at the Mits stuff, and their imput switching with onscreen icons was slow and screwy. How are they today?
Sonebody must have listened to the complaints (I'm new to Mitsu myself). Switch on the remote calls up the options and a couple of seconds later yer there
Things are looking great
And they're only getting better
Plasma. 50" minimum, consider 58". The room is big enough.
The new Panasonic Z700U series are incredible.
Figure how far you'll be sitting from the TV. Halve that distance and that's the size screen to get. Generally speaking, the brands that get the best reviews are Pioneer and Hitachi(for plasma), Panasonic, Sony, and Samsung (LCD).
Actually that rule does not apply any more with the high definition sets. With 1920 by 1080 set, you can sit within a couple of feet and still have a clear picture, at least in the 50 to 60 inch sizes. With the 768 resolution you have to move back a bit, but it is still a lot closer than most 480 sets. These days the limit is your wall size and your pocketbook.
Stu
Plasma if you live below 5000ft and burn in will not be a problem for you. LCD for anything else. They do make Plasma's that work at high altitude but very very expensive.
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