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In Reply to: RE: only production of the panels posted by Joe Murphy Jr on March 03, 2008 at 17:07:43
Here is a company making the best plasmas by far. To save a little when spending a lot, buyers have made Panasonic and LCDs better selling screens. When Pioneer can no longer afford to keep making is own panels, it's a sad day. Hopefully Pioneer is putting all its resources into developing manufacturing capabilities of the 9 mm deep screen, which was shown in prototype form at CES.
I'm just glad I got the 5010 with panels manufactured by Pioneer.
-------------"I have found that if you love life, life will love you back." -Arthur Rubinstein (1887-1982)
Follow Ups:
Personally, I think the Pioneers are a bit over rated. After properly calibrating both a 50" Pioneer and a 50" Panasonic plasma, It was very difficult to see a worthwhile difference. Certainly not one big enough to pay the premium for the Pioneer. I bought the Panasonic, and have not regretted it at all.
After looking at the Pioneer Kuro 1080p vs the TOTL Panny 1080p side by side, IMO the Kuro did have noticeably better blacks, but I especially noticed the shadow detail and the wonderful color on the Kuro.
The Panny is very nice indeed, especially on HD and BD, and if you can't tell much difference why pay more? I can't afford the Kuro, but it looked obviously better to my eyes. I use Master & Commander and Dark City as my torture tests.
a
It's the black crush/lack of shadow detail that's been my issue. Until Kuro, Panny had by far the best blacks. Especially at their price point, especially on brightly lit/outdoor source material. I've almost bought a Panny plasma at least twice. But there's been a price to pay for those relatively deep blacks.
It tends to burn out the whites and crush shadow detail in dark scenes. Panny's better than a lot of the competition but the Kuros beat them rather handily for shadow detail. I would imagine the new models improve upon this. And of course, they'll have their own 10 lumen tech coming out too.
As noted above, I use dark scenes from torture tests like Master & Commander, LOTR and Dark City to audition with. Not many flat screens can do that well. I'd be happy to own a TOPL Panny, but I'd be happier to own a TOPL Pioneer...at least for right now. The target's always moving and I look forward to Panny's new models.
I read an account from the CES where Pioneer ran a demonstration of an upcoming screen alongside their Kuro alternative.
The new screen apparently gives off zero light to create black and the demo was in darkened room, with one of the images displayed being brightly coloured fish against a black background.
With the Kuro display the screen could just be made out, but with the new screen the impressive effect was of the fish swimming around in space with an almost 3D character, and there was actually a round of applause during the demo by some obviously orgasmic professionals.
Can't remember the details but if no one else fills in the gaps I'll root out the magazine in question.
Best Regards,
Chris redmond.
...that several of us have been discussing and that is mentioned in the press release.
I saw the photos of the side by side demo at CES and the blacks were amazing. The new 10 lumen tech panels make the Kuro look to it as the Kuro does to budget plasmas.
There's a long threwad about this over on avsforum.com - someone posted the ling in a thread down below.
nt
Best Regards,
Chris redmond.
I haven't seen the Kuro models, so I can't comment on them. That said, I have to say, that I've been unimpressed with Pioneer's earlier models.
Jack
The Panny's have IMO been the best bang for the buck plasmas out there and they're still very, very good plasmas. I've been watchin' em for 5-6 years.But the Kuros are indeed special. Chances are your local big box store doesn't have them displayed correctly, but the folks who calibrate for a living say they are by far the best plasmas they've seen for blacks, accurate color and shadow detail.
My eyes agree.
The Pio vs Panny rivalry has been going on a long time. Pioneers used to have warmer (more accurate) color rendition and more realistic shadow detail than the Pannys but the Pannys had greater contrast and therefore blacker blacks...more "pop". And Pannys had a better price. Of course, Fujitsu, using Panny glass and thir own electronics used to best both of them handily - for a price. That's no longer true.
The 10 Lumen panels will best them all.
-------------"I have found that if you love life, life will love you back." -Arthur Rubinstein (1887-1982)
Pioneer has spent mucho $ in developing their plasma line, but they have had to charge a premium price to recoup those costs. Remember that the same thing happened to Fujitsu several years ago, though their situation was a bit different: they co-manufactured panels with Hitachi and out-sourced other panels from Matsushita for years because they had the best panels at the time. Fujitsu had the best electronics -- they still do, the AVM series of processors -- in the plasma market and, at the time, sourced the best panels in which to put their electronics (Matsushita). Pioneer's concentration has been on the high-end side of things, but as you can see from Fujitsu's announcement in December, it's just not profitable enough.
If anyone wants an "all" Pioneer model, the one to get will be the models coming out next -- Gen 9. These will be the best plasmas that Pioneer will produce that are solely their own. That said, Pioneer can only claim the top spot for plasmas with the introduction of their Kuro models (Gen 8). The model year right before that (Gen 7), they could only claim parity in black levels and color accuracy with Matsushita and Matsushita-sourced panels from Fujitsu. For many years before that, beginning with its acqusition of Plasmaco and their patents in plasma display technology in 1996, Matsushita has been the leader in this market on nearly every level (consumer market share, supplier to other manufacturers, supplier to the broadcast industry, quality:price ratio, black levels, color accuracy, etc). And in the pre-Kuro black level years, if you really wanted the better setup (panel and electronics), you could get a Panasonic plasma and a DVDO or Lumagen video processor for less than a Pioneer Elite model.
But if you know what's going on in plasma technology, you know that the Gen 9 models won't be Pioneer's best models. Pioneer, Matsushita (Panasonic) and Hitachi have collaborated on 10-lumen tech development and the plasmas that are produced from this joint venture will be nearly identical except for some (not all) of the electronics. Those ECC (Extreme Contrast Concept) models that were shown by Pioneer at CES are only about 6 - 9 months ahead of what the other two are capable of producing. Expect plenty of technology sharing between Matsushita and Pioneer before mid-2009. Both companies will benefit from this business decision and the end result will be better for the consumer on several levels.
I never saw a Fujitsu or a Panasonic I liked more than the comparable Pioneer model. Even when black level or contrast measured a bit worse than a competitor, there was an organic quality and vibrancy about the overall Pioneer picture that I enjoyed. It gave the illusion of greater depth and more lifelike colors, and that's what I look for in a screen.
My point was simple--Consumers should have been buying enough Pioneer plasmas to support its panel manufacturing business . Consumers should not be looking to pinch pennies when buying big-ticket luxury items that last a long time and will get everyday use.
I think everyone realizes that each successive generation of plasmas will offer improvements. But as for whether a deepening collaboration between Pioneer and Panasonic will really be what's best for the customer, we will never know. Collaboration may be important in the beginning stages of development, but I don't see how it's better than good old fashioned competition this late in the game. Obviously, Matsushita can make panels more cheaply and consumers didn't support Pioneer enough to allow their own panel manufacturing to continue and that is all this is about.
-------------"I have found that if you love life, life will love you back." -Arthur Rubinstein (1887-1982)
Ironically, that's why Pioneer is in it's current position. The competition gave close enough quality at a much lower price and persuaded the consumer to choose someone other than Pioneer for their plasma viewing needs.
Pioneer's processing has never been in question. However, up until about 2 1/2 years ago, the green push on Pioneers was almost as bad as the Samsungs that were displayed next to them. And the difference in processing capability never justified their price premium, especially compared to the Panasonics (at the time).
I hate to see a quality company make a business decision that leaves their customers wondering about or regretting their purchase. However, I believe Pioneer made a business decision that will benefit them in the long run -- keeping them in the display business. The alternative would have been to close their doors re: their plasma business.
In the old days, a customer didn't mind paying a little extra for superior workmanship or expertise. Now we live in an age where quality isn't appreciated and quick fixes and cost-cutting is the way to go uber alles. That's why digital downloads killed high resolution audio formats. This Pioneer setback is yet another instance where cost is trumping quality in the digital age. I understand it, but I don't like it. Not one bit.
-------------"I have found that if you love life, life will love you back." -Arthur Rubinstein (1887-1982)
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