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I've been reading and asking around for suggestion on a quality display. The response has been overwhelming in favor of the Panasonic or Pioneer plasmas. With my wife in tow we sat in amazement at a Magnolia ( a Best Buy owned specialty store ) auditioning the Pioneer KURO. Next to the KURO was a SONY XBR. After hearing our comments regarding how much brighter, sharper, and how more realistic the color looked on the LCD, he adjusted both sets to their standard settings.Still the LCD retained the same strengths. The salesman said both sets have been calibrated but he was a bit vague as to exactly what standard of calibration. The plasma did have blacker bands when the media didn't fill the screen but the darkest portions of the film had more definition on the LCD. We really didn't notice any glaring difference in motion, the plasma having a very slight edge.
Are these differences still a result of showroom technics, should I be asking some other specific question or carry a test disk? I feel like I'm listening to stereo receivers and one has the loudness button on and the other doesn't.
Vic
Edits: 03/29/08Follow Ups:
My quick advice: look at/for a 700-series Panasonic plasma while you can still get one and I think you will be impressed, at a cost quite a bit less than the Pioneers.
Deep blacks, no motion artifacts, beautiful grayscale...a pleasure to look at with BluRay or HiDef cable.
When I bought the Panny, it was based on this:
I love films. Couldn't care less about sports, reality shows, et.c.
I work as a broadcast video shooter.
I spent some time as a projectionist (35 and 70mm) and I still have a 16mm Xenon projector at home which I use for feature films, so those were my 'baselines' for choosing a video display.
The above drove my decision to get the 58-inch Panasonic. It had to do justice to everything from B/W silents to the latest filmstocks and do it accurately with banging contrast.
It is a very beautiful display, and I can recommend it highly. I broke mine in for the first 100 hours with a white/color gradation disc, to take the edge off the sensitivity for burn-in, and I have had no problems with that whatsoever.
Claus.
...Sony XBR Bravia LCDs are the best LCDs I've seen. And I've looked at these a LOT since the Kuros came out. A friend has a Kuro and I'd arm wrestle him for it, or maybe more. ;-)I concur with other posters - if the whites on the Pio were greenish something was very wrong. The color purity is one of the best things about the Kuros, along with the black blacks...and most important to me personally, the shadow detail. Some of my favorite movies have dark scenes and the Kuros kill all the flat screen competition. LCDs do better with brighlty lit source material. That said, the latest Sony Bravia LCDs have better darks and shadow detail than any other LCD I've seen, including the Sharp Aquos. Not as good as the Kuros, but the best of LCD.
LCDs are super sharp, almost hyper sharp, and very bright. The joys of plasma are like movies - plasma looks more filmlike to me, therefor more pleasing to my eyes. LCDs are a bit more "video-like" to me. So if you're mainly watching sports and T based material, maybe this isn't such a big deal to you like it is to me. If you end up with the Sony you've still got a great display.
If you watch a lot of film based material, then I think you might like the look of the plasma better long term,
If you have a regular BB somewhere nearby, head over there. Even the BBs near me that don't have Magnolias do have the Kuros, Bravia XRBs and TOTL Pannies on the floor.
Just be sure if you go to a bbig box store you're comparing apples to apples, that the displays are all 1080p (Kuro also comes in 720p). And don't judge the sets with a digital animated movie. All HDTVs look wonderful with that material, so watch it with movies or sports or whatever you normally watch, something that puts them through their paces. (For me, that is DVDs of Master & Commander and Dark City).
I agree with you that the Kuro-Elite in 50"(?) is the best Plasma I've seen. But with Pioneer getting out of the plasma screen manufacturing business and selling the 'Kuro' technology to Panasonic and others(?) do you think it's better to wait for next years models rather than rush-out to grab one of the few Kuros remaining?
I read somewhere that Panasonic plans on taking the Kuro picture to the next level of contrast- a picture that will outshine the Pioneer. Of course, the prices will be up there but it seems to make sense to just wait for the new arrivals at the end of the year.
Thoughts?
Pioneer will not be manufacturing the plasma screens after the Gen 9 models (the next Pioneer models to be released). Panasonic will begin manufacturing screens for them after that.
Pioneer is not selling the Kuro technology. They will give Panasonic the designs for the plasmas and Panasonic will manufacture the screens to their specifications.
Panasonic, Pioneer and Hitachi have collaborated on a new technology called "10-lumen tech". All three have access to the technology because all three jointly developed it. Expect the plasma screens that incorporate this new technology to differ by electronics only.
This whole situation is like a riddle that keeps unfolding. If I read in the news that Pioneer is getting out of the plasma business I assume they're 'getting out'. If this Gen9 is in the works, how will it differ from what is out there now by Pioneer? Will it be a better technology or just more of the same until the '10-tech' ( which I hear is really something to see ) hits the market?
It almost seems the Japnese have a little 'shell' game going here. As long as they keep us guessing and bewildered about their intentions our appetite for their new products will keep flourishing.
Glad to see somebody understands the marketing structure of future HD TV production as well as you do. As for me, I'll continue to watch the walls of HD TV's at 'Best Buy' and pretend I know what's happening.
Best Buy employees ("...and pretend I know what's happening."), of course.
Lots of misinformation comes from rumors, misunderstood press releases and so-called insiders. If you look at Pioneer's press releases concerning this matter, I don't think it's confusing at all. Then again, here we are...
Remember before flat screens came out, Hitachi manufactured 90% of all picture tubes produced in Japan, preferring to OEM rather than to build exclusively for their own use. The use of Pioneer of Panasonic plasmas is nothing unusual. In fact most of Sony's LCDS are built by Sam Sung, IIRC.
Stu
As a relatively recent (and happy) owner of a new Pioneer Kuro 5010FD plasma display, I can tell you that I also did much comparison shopping, and have come away from the experience knowing that you simply cannot make any serious judgments of picture quality while looking at display models in a store. Even if the salesman re-sets a display's settings back to 'standard' mode, there's still a fair amount of processing going on underneath--processing that should be further tweaked for optimum results. I chose this particular Kuro model because I wanted great blacks and a more film-like look to the picture, which is where I believe plasmas are superior to LCDs. (I bought it online, BTW, and saved a bundle.)
I can tell you that the picture I'm seeing on my Pioneer is WAY better than what I saw on ANY store display, LCD or plasma. I attribute that to all the adjustments I made to the display's settings--in 'standard' mode, mind you--that made the picture look more natural and film-like. These adjustments included turning OFF many picture-processing (and degrading) 'features' like velocity scan modulation and lowering the sharpness and contrast settings. I started with the suggested settings published by someone on the AVS Forum and have been very pleased with the results. (To get really optimum results, I really should get the set ISF-calibrated, but that is a major expense and I already feel like I'm 95% of the way there, so it's not a priority at the moment.) Now I cringe every time I walk into a BB/Magnolia or similar store and look at their displays--they all look so artificially pumped-up and overly etched, even though the salesmen claim they are all set to 'standard' mode.
Russell
Vic----Maybe you're not missing anything. Don't worry about what other people say they like, have confidence in yourself and your own observations. Beware groupthink.
There are many good looking TVs out there, actually damned near everything out there looks pretty good; some a little better at this or that, know what I mean?
Besides all the other suggestions a quality power conditioner will make marked visual improvement in any display device. Lower video noise will result.
I use a Chang Lightspeed, but there are many other brands on the market.
I'm assuming all three sets I was comparing were using the same power source. It's my experience that any type of power conditioning is location or source specific. But thanks anyway.
LCDs tend to be a lot brighter than a plasma as you can plainly see. For viewing in a very well lite environment. like a showroom floor that may be a plus.
For home use I find the slightly muted brightness of plasmas to be easier on the eyes and also yields better gradations of black, the typical downfall of many flat panel displays. Next time, try taking a rather 'dark' movie and compare each presentation for shadow details. Movies like Batman Begins is a good choice as the film quality is quite dark: check for small details in folds of the cape and details in the shadow. Ultimately that will give you better satisfaction in long term usage as most home situations are not as bright as a showroom.
Of course YMMV,
Stu
I found the dark gradations in dark sequences to be more detailed on the LCD. Compared to the LCD. The whites on the plasma weren't simply muted they were greenish by comparison.
I'm assuming you could easily turn the brightness down on the LCD to match the plasma but can the plasma produce a bright white?
"Bright as a showroom". This showroom was a little darker than my home.
If they were 'greenish', then they were not properly set up. I have noticed a lot of the Pionners looking 'greenish' at BB. I dont know what that is all about, but I know the Panasonic I purchased certainly doenst have a 'greenish' cast. Whites are very pure, and I think as far as brightness goes, a plasma can pretty much keep up with an LCD. However, high brightness levels usually arent the way you end up using them at home. After adjusting the units for best picture quality, you can then have a much better judgement of capabilities. You can pick up a calibration disk for cheap, or google for the proper settings. Few big box retailers have the units properly adjusted for image quality, or even know how to set them up.
Even as misscalibrated as the demo sets we viewed may have been I think we were seeing a general difference in the two technologies that is mentioned in the excerpt from a review. In the end it's as you say, getting the set home and enjoying the picture IS the bottom line. Compared to what we're watching now that difference should be stunning.
From Home Theater November 2007 by Thomas J. Norton:
Some 1080p LCDs can look a little sharper and "quieter." This was true of the Sharp AQUOS LC-52D64U I just reviewed; look at a plasma screen from up close and you can often see the pixels "dithering," which is not characteristic of LCDs. But from a normal viewing distance there simply doesn't seem to be anything missing in the Pioneer's picture. Its response does fall off a bit at the very highest frequencies (see "Measurements"), but I suspect that most HD program material falls off even faster. I've been living with the PDP-6010FD for two weeks, and I still find its overall sense of detail, on the right program material, breathtaking.
Yes, up close to the Panasonic I see the 'dithering' as well. You dont want to sit too close. At typical user distances, though, you dont see it at all. LCD's dither also. We have a 37" LG LCD we got for the kids to play thier Wii on, and added a DVD player to it. Up close, you can see the same type of 'dithering' going on on it too. I think this is typical for all HD displays, as thier upconverting algorithms process the information they recieve. But again, at typical user distances, it fades into the background.
If the whites were greenish, the set was not properly calibrated. I've several friends with Kuros and the picture is absolutely stunning.
Stu
For starters, you missed looking at the Panasonic 1080p displays, out in the main part of the Best Buy store--considerably less expensive than the Pioneers, very bright and maybe w/o the problems you identified with the Pioneer. You missed seeing what Consumer Reports claims is the best Plasma out there.
Higher priced and higher margin, maybe, and catering to wealthy snobs with more money than brains, but don't assume the stuff in the Magnolia room is somehow clearly or obviously better than what is found in the main part of the store.
No, I didn't miss the Panasonic, it was set up right next to the Pioneer which was right next to the XBR.
Consumer Reports?
"More money than brains"? OK, and the very reason I'm here looking for guidance. Still, this particular Magnolia store (San Ramone Ca.) is not physically connected to a Best Buy the nearest being miles away. Just the same the Panasonic was presant and compaired to the other two displays in question looked washed out.
If the Panasonic looked washed out in comparison, I would question the calibration of all the units. A properly calibrated Panasonic can give the Pioneers a good run for the money, in my opinion. When I compared the Panasonic 50" to the Pioneer, they were very, very close. The Pioneer was maybe slightly better, but not 3 times better (like the cost), so I got the Panasonic. Once you get it home, you forget all about the comparisons, and just enjoy a great picture.
Vic, you probably DID miss the Panny. The new Panny that everyone is talking about has only been in the BB stores with the last week ... that's how new it is. The model number is TH-50PZ85U. I saw it for the first time Wednesday night. The kid at BB didn't even know they had it until I pointed out the demo model to him. It was not in the Magnolia section of the store. It is quite nice, but both the comparable Kuro models bettered it. The Pio 5010 was better, but the difference compared to the Panny did not, IMO, justify the extra price for the 5010. On the other hand, the Elite 110FD smoked the Panny by a WIDE margin (I'm talking different planet better). Whether what the 110FD brings to the table (way better picture, better sound, two thirds the power consumption, double the warranty, loads more connectivity options, and on and on) is worth the extra money to you is something you'll have to judge for yourself.
As for Sony - given my past experience with their supposed "top of the line" stuff, I wouldn't buy one of their products even if they were the only manufacturer on the planet. I'd rather look at a blank wall. And also, I'm sure you know this already, but BB are thieves. Virtually anything they sell can be had elsewhere for at least 20% less. That new Panny that they retail for $2.7k can be delivered to your house for less than $2.2k. The 110FD they sell for $6k plus tax can be had for less than $4.5k. I'm all for supporting bricks and mortar - but I'm not stupid. Well, at least not exceedingly so - I think.
Sondek, Lots of good information. No, I have no idea which model Panasonic I was comparing.
Regarding purchasing a display are you suggesting purchasing online? I did come across a dealer who paid for insured shipping with quick replacement of damaged during shipping products. I'm open to suggestions regarding where to buy.
I guess I've had good luck with older Sony Profeel and XBR CRT's and have sold or gifted every set in good working order. But, this last 36" CRT's tube is failing much sooner than previous sets. I'm not questioning your disdain for the brand, I find your experience rather eye opening, thank you. Still, it's difficult dismiss what we viewed as a seemingly better picture which is the basis for my confusion and original question.
BTW, what Stu said is my experience w/the Kuro's as well. If the whites were green something was wrong. You said you went to a standalone Magnolia store. Does your local BB also have a Magnolia? If so, you may want to go to that location to take another look at the Kuro Elite. Also, seek out that new Panny at BB since I'm not sure the Magnolias are going to display them. You may find it very much to your liking too. If I didn't know the Kuros Elites were out there, I'd be all over that new Panny like a dog on a bone.
Howdy, Vic:
Yes. I am suggesting you consider purchasing on-line. For the moment, I personally am paralyzed by indecision. No, strike that ... I've decided. It's going to be the 110FD. I'm paralyzed by the process of convincing myself that I should spend that much. I suspect that I'll eventually win-out over myself but it's a tough battle. Afford is not the question ... more my mid-west upbringing and my scotch nature. Anyway, I've done a ton of window shopping and tire kicking and looking around for a good price from a dealer that can be relied upon. When I do finally make the buy decision it will be from AxxisDurango.com. You will have to email them for a quote since I guess some of the restrictions placed on them by some manufacturers prohibit them from advertising their prices on-line. Based on numerous glowing comments I've read about Axxis on the AVS forum, they seem to have an extremely good reputation. And my own personal contact with them was handled in a very courteous and professional manner - leaving me with absolutely no qualms about doing business with them when the time comes. The delivered price quote I received on the 110FD was very, very competitive.
My issue with Sony goes back a ways. My first bad experience with them was when I purchased one of their top of the line VCR's ($800 at the time) which died two weeks after the warranty expired. The repair estimate came back at $600. It went into the trash. My second bad experience came with the video camera purchased when my daughter was born. Again, top of the line model costing nearly $1k. It too died. This time two months after expiration of the warranty. Repair bill was once again over $600. There were other short-lived Sony products in my past but none as dear as that VCR and video camera. After the episode with the video camera I swore I'd never again buy anything but throw-away products from Sony.
Good luck in you hunt,
Mike
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