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In Reply to: RE: I don't know where this sense of entitlement comes from posted by Jazz Inmate on February 18, 2009 at 20:58:16
from the studio. And all we want to do is play them. Who's losing out? It ain't them, so don't turn "entitlement" around on us.
Follow Ups:
The retailer isn't going to turn down your money no matter where they are.
But if you expect electronics manufacturers to give up their license rights just so you can play a DVD from a different region, you're going to be disappointed.
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We must be the change we wish to see in the world. -Gandhi
> > > "But if you expect electronics manufacturers to give up their license rights just so you can play a DVD from a different region, you're going to be disappointed." < < <
Oppo has been providing this function since they started manufacturing DVD players without incurring any legal penalties; it has propelled them to the top terms of one box versatility, along with their excellent customer service. Trust me, not offering backwards compatible region flexibility on their upcoming Blu-ray player is a BIG loser for them.
Zone locking for Blu-ray is a totally different matter and is selective by rights holder, so it is far less critical for the consumer at this point, but even that can be by-passed if the customer is willing to double-down and invest in a modded player.
Your efforts to equate film lovers who enjoy foreign fare and demand region flexibility with bootleg enablers or pirates makes you appear foolish; if I were you I'd quit while you're behind (here's a clue: there is no 'ahead' for you on this topic).
AuPh
> > Oppo has been providing this function since they started manufacturing DVD players without incurring any legal penalties; it has propelled them to the top terms of one box versatility, along with their excellent customer service. < <
They managed to get around the rules because they weren't a major electronics manufacturer. Their popularity has put them on the map and unless they want to be wiped off of it, they'll play by the rules.
> > Trust me, not offering backwards compatible region flexibility on their upcoming Blu-ray player is a BIG loser for them. < <
Maybe among you malcontents and handwavers who whine on AVS all day, but not Oppo is still a winner to sane people.
> > Zone locking for Blu-ray is a totally different matter and is selective by rights holder, so it is far less critical for the consumer at this point, but even that can be by-passed if the customer is willing to double-down and invest in a modded player. < <
You are talking about a slim propeller hat wearing contingent of the DVD-buying public. That is your demographic. But don't assume it dictates market forces or distribution policy.
> > Your efforts to equate film lovers who enjoy foreign fare and demand region flexibility with bootleg enablers or pirates makes you appear foolish; < <
I'm not equating anyone. I'm saying it's stupid to buy a Region X DVD and expect to be able to play it in Region Y. I'm saying there are some players that will do that, but these are in violation of rules. That's a fact.
> > if I were you I'd quit while you're behind (here's a clue: there is no 'ahead' for you on this topic). < <
The format I adopted won and studios are distributing titles in the areas where they have rights...and will continue to do so as supported by electronics manufacturers and region encoding. That's reality. Run from it as fast as you can, stoner, but you'll never leave it behind.
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We must be the change we wish to see in the world. -Gandhi
Well, sort of...
> > > They managed to get around the rules because they weren't a major electronics manufacturer. Their popularity has put them on the map and unless they want to be wiped off of it, they'll play by the rules. < < <
That is irrelevant. If they were breaking the law, they would have been shut down. Note-they will not upscale over component as per the DVD consortium.
> > > Oppo is still a winner to sane people. < < <
I guess that rules out the folks at that circle jerk called Blu-ray.com.
Calling EE an "ever-so-slight glow effect" isn't what most people would call sane.
> > > I'm saying it's stupid to buy a Region X DVD and expect to be able to play it in Region Y < < <
That's why oppo was formed.
In the end, they will gain some customers from going BD, but they will lose some too, due to lack of multi-region. Actually, its price may turnj off quite a few old customers.
> > > The format I adopted won < < <
How is SACD doing these days?
Jack
> > That is irrelevant. If they were breaking the law, they would have been shut down. Note-they will not upscale over component as per the DVD consortium. < <
What makes you so sure they would have been shut down? They could have just been small potatoes, doing more good than harm to the stakeholders. Michael Phelphs wasn't prosecuted for smoking pot (thereby becoming even more of a hero to Auph), but would you say he didn't break the rules?
> > That's why oppo was formed. < <
"Based in the heart of Silicon Valley, award winning OPPO Digital, Inc., manufactures and markets high quality digital electronics that deliver style, performance, innovation, and value to A/V enthusiasts and savvy consumers alike. The company's attention to core product performance and strong customer focus distinguish it from traditional consumer-electronics brands." Doesn't say anything about being formed to ignore region encoding rules.
> > In the end, they will gain some customers from going BD, but they will lose some too, due to lack of multi-region. < <
Go look at the buying habits of the public and step outside your insular world of imports. The average consumer has never bought a DVD region-encoded outside the region where he lives. Meanwhile, BDs are still fairly new and already achieving double-digit portions of all home video sales. show me which of your import DVDs can claim such numbers.
> > How is SACD doing these days? < <
Fine. My SACD player plays all my digital music and I just bought a Coleman Hawkins SACD, Groove Armada SACD and DJ Krush SACD. looking forward to the MTT Mahler 8 to complete the SACD Mahler SFO cycle. Thanks for asking.
-------------
We must be the change we wish to see in the world. -Gandhi
> > > What makes you so sure they would have been shut down? They could have just been small potatoes, doing more good than harm to the stakeholders < < <
Small potatoes doesn't matter. Mom and Pop farmers selling umpasturized (but fresh from the cow) milk are getting shut down despite being small potatoes. Do you think college kids that were being prosecuted by the RIAA weren't small potatoes?
> > > . Michael Phelphs wasn't prosecuted for smoking pot (thereby becoming even more of a hero to Auph), but would you say he didn't break the rules? < < <
Phelps certainly isn't small potatoes, he's rich and famous. If that was me (small potatoes)in the picture, I'd be in jail.
> > > Doesn't say anything about being formed to ignore region encoding rules. < < <
Of course being you, you believe all sales hype. I have their first model, back when they only had one, it was sold specifically as a multi-region player-that was listed as a feature.
> > > look at the buying habits of the public...The average consumer has never bought a DVD region-encoded outside the region where he lives. < < <
You are probably right-I'll drive over to the nearest McDonald's and ask them.
> > > Meanwhile, BDs are still fairly new and already achieving double-digit portions < < <
Still going by profits I see. I'm still waiting for unit numbers.
> > > show me which of your import DVDs can claim such numbers. < < <
How do you think importers/distributors know what to import for R1? They look at what movies people like and are importing here from other regions. Do you really think the Vengeance Trilogy or the Infernal affairs trilogy would have been made into R1 if they weren't already hits as imports from other regions?
Are they as popular as Spiderman or Batman? No, but just because McDonald's sells alot of hamburgers, doesn't mean people should abandon 5 star restaurants.
Jack
> > Small potatoes doesn't matter. Mom and Pop farmers selling umpasturized (but fresh from the cow) milk are getting shut down despite being small potatoes. < <
Public safety is not small potatoes.
> > Do you think college kids that were being prosecuted by the RIAA weren't small potatoes?
I think 99.9% of college kids (or anyone else) illegally downloading or copying music and not paying for it got away with it. Napster, however, was shut down and a few thousand kids were prosecuted to try to scare others straight.
> > Phelps certainly isn't small potatoes, he's rich and famous. < <
I meant small potatoes in the law sense. The DA who had the authority to charge him with breaking drug laws said he wouldn't because he had a backlog of cases involving dealers and more hardened criminals. In that respect, Phelps was indeed small potatoes and the DA said as much.
> > If that was me (small potatoes)in the picture, I'd be in jail. < <
Lots of people like you (Auph for example) get stoned as a matter of routine and don't go to jail.
> > Of course being you, you believe all sales hype. < <
It was Oppo's mission statement. Your idea of their mission is to bring foreign-region DVDs to your screen, but if you think that's really their mission, you're projecting (no pun intended).
> > I have their first model, back when they only had one, it was sold specifically as a multi-region player-that was listed as a feature. < <
Then you bought into the sales hype, not me.
> > Still going by profits I see. I'm still waiting for unit numbers. < <
Why? DVDs can sell out in the dollar bins and still not bring in the bucks that BDs will soon command. The writing is on the wall. Read it.
> > How do you think importers/distributors know what to import for R1? They look at what movies people like and are importing here from other regions. < <
Importers cater to a small segment of the audience.
> > Do you really think the Vengeance Trilogy or the Infernal affairs trilogy would have been made into R1 if they weren't already hits as imports from other regions? < <
Of course they would. They're established international blockbusters.
-------------
We must be the change we wish to see in the world. -Gandhi
They certainly didn't do well in the theaters in the US. Of those 6, only Oldboy showed in the theaters in DC. Briefly. How many of those did YOU see in the theater? You never even heard of Infernal Affairs until it came out on BD. Probably the same with Oldboy.
You're arguing for the sake of arguing at this point.
I'm through here.
Jack
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We must be the change we wish to see in the world. -Gandhi
;0)
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We must be the change we wish to see in the world. -Gandhi
... YOU have access to a bigger bong than Phelps and much stronger opiates! ;0)
> > > "What makes you so sure they would have been shut down?" < < <
Like you pointed out yourself, their base of operations is in California and they ship product from inside the U.S. even if it's manufactured in China. If Oppo had been violating any laws the studios and other hardware manufacturers would have been on them quicker that horse flies laying maggot eggs on your uninformed opinions!
> > > "Michael Phelphs wasn't prosecuted for smoking pot (thereby becoming even more of a hero to Auph), but would you say he didn't break the rules?" < < <
FYI, I'm neither an Olympic swimming fan nor an encourager of substance abuse (which is a bit off topic for this forum, don't you think?), but since you're flailing about in the shallow end I'll go this far: You do remind me a bit of the overzealous Sheriff who was raising a big public stink about the unfortunate Phelps photo just to get attention (in his case, to benefit politically from the publicity; in your's, who knows!).
> > > "'Based in the heart of Silicon Valley, award winning OPPO Digital, Inc., manufactures and markets high quality digital electronics that deliver style, performance, innovation, and value to A/V enthusiasts and savvy consumers alike. The company's attention to core product performance and strong customer focus distinguish it from traditional consumer-electronics brands.' Doesn't say anything about being formed to ignore region encoding rules." < < <
You really need to work up some new cheers if you're going to compete with the advertisers for attention around here; those pompoms of yours are looking a bit saggy.
I find it highly amusing that you would use Oppo's own advertising copy to try and spin your uninformed opinion. Not only are you tossing out advertising jargon to push your (naive?) POV without any empirical evidence to support it, but you're overlooking the company's word of mouth reputation for being the 'Swiss Army" DVD Player! As I see it, Oppo's success has been built around three things: 1) fast, friendly service, 2) providing region-free access via a simple menu key code flies in the face of your argument, and 3) lots of bang for the buck.
> > > "Go look at the buying habits of the public and step outside your insular world of imports. The average consumer has never bought a DVD region-encoded outside the region where he lives." < < <
Hello, Earth to Jazz Inmate? The not-so-average consumer is upwards of 50% of Oppo's customer base! Small specialty companies attract customers who seek a more diverse A/V experience than usually offered by most major brands, including but not limited to international entertainment. At a boutique price point, Oppo serves a more tweak-friendly, intellectually astute customer base with broader tastes (you being the possible exception).
> > > "Fine. My SACD player plays all my digital music and I just bought a Coleman Hawkins SACD, Groove Armada SACD and DJ Krush SACD. looking forward to the MTT Mahler 8 to complete the SACD Mahler SFO cycle. Thanks for asking." < < <
Great. OK, tell us again why you'd buy an overpriced Oppo BDP-83 that adds Blu-ray but takes away the key region unlocking feature if you already have a Blu-ray player and a nice SACD player (I assume that it's also an Oppo DVD player)?
AuPh
If they do it right, the new player from oppo will at least equal the PS3 in Blu-ray picture quality and equal (or better, as the ABT architecture has the ability to output DVDs at 1080p24) their own 983 in DVD picture quality. One box instead of two.
As for playback of all DVD regions, like I said many many moons ago, the BDA is not the group that oppo wants to piss off. They will either play nice or they may find that there's no playing at all. However, in another year or two, who knows? But again, DVD Decrypter/DVD Shrink (or other similar programs) can make up for a player not playing the original non-Region 1 discs and can make the disc play the way you want it to and without all of the restrictions.
Like you pointed out yourself, their base of operations is in California and they ship product from inside the U.S. even if it's manufactured in China. If Oppo had been violating any laws the studios and other hardware manufacturers would have been on them quicker that horse flies laying maggot eggs on your uninformed opinions!Again, Oppo was in violation, but at the time it was just a small company trying to compete with the jauggernauts. DVD sales were huge everywhere and the studios decided there was no reason to make Oppo conform. Now it's built a reputation and commands an important part of the disc player market. It has to play by the rules.
I find it highly amusing that you would use Oppo's own advertising copy to try and spin your uninformed opinion.
It's their mission statement, not ad copy. I just posted it because it clearly doesn't support Jack's assessment of Oppo's mission to bring non-region A movies to his screen.
Not only are you tossing out advertising jargon to push your (naive?) POV without any empirical evidence to support it, but you're overlooking the company's word of mouth reputation for being the 'Swiss Army" DVD Player!
Yeah, I understand you losers on AVS drooled all over their gear just because you could play any disc under the sun with it. But quality and customer support were always of more interest to me and many others.
As I see it, Oppo's success has been built around three things: 1) fast, friendly service, 2) providing region-free access via a simple menu key code flies in the face of your argument, and 3) lots of bang for the buck.
Ok, fine, I agree with that, but you have to face the fact that you were living on borrowed time with #2 because once Oppo got big enough it was gonna have to start playing by the rules. That time is now.
Hello, Earth to Jazz Inmate? The not-so-average consumer is upwards of 50% of Oppo's customer base!
That speaks to the point I made about Oppo being small potatoes. The company wants to grow and it is not going to do that by appealing strictly to import-loving propeller hat wearing AVS denizens.
Small specialty companies attract customers who seek a more diverse A/V experience than usually offered by most major brands, including but not limited to international entertainment. At a boutique price point, Oppo serves a more tweak-friendly, intellectually astute customer base with broader tastes (you being the possible exception).
As the owner of an integrated tube amp that lists for $19,000, I'm well aware that some companies are striving for producing specialty electronics for a niche market. Oppo never struck me like that. Oppo wants to be the leader in affordable disc machines. So far, they have been able to do that while maintaining tremendous quality and customer support. I hope it lasts, but I wouldn't bank on it forever.
Great. OK, tell us again why you'd buy an overpriced Oppo BDP-83 that adds Blu-ray but takes away the key region unlocking feature if you already have a Blu-ray player and a nice SACD player (I assume that it's also an Oppo DVD player)?
Actually it's a Classe Omega SACD-2, which most definitely is a nice SACD player. My hope is that the BDP-83 will have superior picture and sound to the PS3 and not give up much quality in SACD or CD to the SACD-2...in which case I could keep the Oppo, sell my Omega disc machine, move the PS3 to my other TV, and have about $3000 in my pocket and some extra room on my shelf. I don't need to worry about region-locked DVDs because I've had the foresight to not buy any.
-------------We must be the change we wish to see in the world. -Gandhi
Edits: 02/20/09
...you apparently lack appreciation for any entertainment available from other regions. So, by pretending to take a superior ethical attitude it allows you to wallow in your own limited cultural sophistication while criticizing the tastes of others, right?
OK, I think we've got this sussed out! ;0)
Cheers,
AuPh
in my region.If I didn't, I'd fully expect my DVD player to not play the non-region A titles.
You should use similar logic going forward--assuming you're capable of logic.
-------------We must be the change we wish to see in the world. -Gandhi
Edits: 02/24/09
If you want to stick up for second rate performance then more power to you (the irony of your criticizing those who supported HD-DVD won't be lost on most of the folks who post here).
While I won't knock KINO's efforts to bring out quality fare, they too often do a half-assed job of it, ignoring progressive scan in favor of interlaced even after Eureka has released the same films properly and provided 'kewler' extras and better packaging.
But even that isn't the key issue with demanding region-free access. Here is a smattering of the Region 2 releases I am able to enjoy:
Spooks (released in edited form over here as MI-5, the series is more intense and makes a lot more sense in it's original form)
Sharpe's Rifles (entire series of films; apparently the transfer was screwed up when converted to NTSC; stick with the PAL)
Sherlock Holmes (entire series with Jeremy Brett; remastered; region 2 PAL looks great with really nice packaging)
Life On Mars (1st series; unedited PAL; WS)
Torchwood (unedited; WS, with all of the adult situations and humor intact)
The Sweeney (entire series; clever 70's police drama that was more sophisticated than any genre cop shows we were doing over here at the time)
Primeval (recent SF drama with special effects created by the Walking With Dinosaurs crew; great show)
Jekyll (awesome mini-series updating of Jeckyll/Hyde story; unedited PAL version is gripping)
Sapphire and Steele (quirky late 70's British SF/Fantasy/Horror series starring David McCallum that owes a lot to the Brothers Grimm)
Cracker (complete, UNEDITED, and non-PC British series featuring Robbie Coltrane; gritty and unflinching)
Blake's 7 (cheesy card-board FX wrapped around some of the best writing ever done in a character driven science fiction drama)
Movies:
L'Argent (Eureka release of French silent; is there an NTSC one?)
Faust (Murnau silent; latest Eureka release vastly superior to KINO; with better packaging & extras)
The Phantom Carriage (Sweedish classic silent; Tartan release; is there a U.S. release?)
This barely scratches the surface of my international collection; I could go on, but why should I waste my time trying to educate you when you obviously lack the interest to appreciate it?
If you expect me to feel some guilt over buying PAL region 2 cinema and television series that either aren't available here or have been released in badly edited/poorly transferred form then you're pretty darn clueless, not to mention more of a whiner than a film fan.
AuPh
That means no more interlaced, if that's your bone of contention with Kino.
Most of the folks who post here weren't stupid enough to adopt HD DVD. Not only did you adopt it, you kept supporting it, buying titles and hardware even after it went belly up. That kind of insanity isn't lost on the rest of us denizens. You accuse others of cheerleading and behaving irrationally, but you're the epitome of each.
Likewise you have clearly built an enormous collection of non-region A DVD releases that you are very proud of owning. Given that it will now be reissued in a superior format, I'm not sure why you cling to it like a baby koala to its mother. Sell it on ebay while you can still get a buck for it.
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We must be the change we wish to see in the world. -Gandhi
You are not only clueless, you're apparently hopeless!
Let's do this s-l-o-w-l-y:
Many of the Region 2 PAL titles I've purchased have never been released over here in ANY format, so why should I expect Blu-ray releases anytime soon? Figure that one out and get beck to me when you actually have a clue, Sherlock!
> > > "Most of the folks who post here weren't stupid enough to adopt HD DVD." < < <
Most of those folks also bought Blu-ray and made it clear that they had no dog in that hunt other than supporting high definition and open region entertainment. The fact that some of us still have HD-DVD players and discs, enjoy them and have no regrets speaks better of the format than it does of your bias.
> > > "You accuse others of cheerleading..." < < <
No, not others, ...just you! ;^D
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