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In Reply to: RE: transporting your system posted by Joe Murphy Jr on March 12, 2009 at 17:40:00
Done many searches, many searches don't support the . in 7.1 so end up fruitless....
So I wonder, is there any . in having a 7.1 system? I've yet to rent a movie listed as 7.1 surround. And as much as Transporter 3 might have it, I'd have to (just my way) rent 1 and 2 first before 3. That's 3-5 weeks of renting movies for me. :) Generally I do like this type of movie but Transporter movies just never hit my system, there's always been a better off the Blockbuster shelf choice for me thus far.
I've gone to blu-ray.com to look up movie releases with 7.1 and they are few and far between. The ones that are listed as such mostly don't interest me (Hellboy, etc).
Is the blu-ray site up to date? Anybody else wonder the same? I've actually considered splitting the output from the 5.1 rear outs and running it into both rear amps/speaker sets. At least that way I'd hear something out of them. Crazy?
Follow Ups:
I recently went from an Integra 6.1 to a Pioneer 7.1 receiver in my smallish HT space. Regardless of the limited 7.1 media I'm enjoying the audio difference a great deal. I'm not sure what's going on technically but the 7.1 receiver seems to be matrixing 5.1 content into the side and rear channels. On screen dialogue is much more localized and the side and rear speakers create a much greater sense of surround. The sides and rears are not simply outputting the same signal. I'm guessing the room correction/calibration has had a roll in it but overall I'm very pleased with 7.1.
...not many of us have the room or the interest in placing them. Also, both my hi-rez disc player, a Samsung 5000, AND my hi-end 6-channel preamp, can't accommodate 2 more channels.
I have 114 BDs in my collection. Exactly FOUR have 7.1-channel sountracks, namely 'The Bank Job', 'Final Coundown', 'The Orphanage (El Orfanato)', and 'Pan's Labyrinth'. I guess if I were feeding digital signals to a 7.1-channel receiver, I might think about a 7.1-channel system, but probably not, as my main suround speakers are already high on the rear wall.
Each of these quite-full-range systems is in parallel with a smallish 'full-range' system mounted on the back of a beam high on the ceiling and slightly ahead of my seat...
...to produce diffuse-sounding surround channels that sound QUITE good for movies and multichannel Classical music. The levels of the beam speakers are reduced with high-wattage resistors so that the locations of the surround speakers are not audible.
So it's ('only') 5.1 for me. :-)
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Tin-eared audiofool and parttime landscape fotografer.
http://community.webshots.com/user/jeffreybehr
I've got a 6.1 system having added the 6th channel a couple of years ago back when I was buying a few DVDs with DTS ES discrete 6.1 soundtracks. I know the arguments in favour of using 2 rear surrounds but that is physically impossible in the relatively open plan space my system is set up in but a single, centred surround speaker in the rear was possible so I went with that. There were no 7.1 soundtracks on DVD. I do have a couple on BD.
My take on channels is that I think playback sounds best when you play the disc back using the same number of channels as encoded on the disc. I built my system by moving from 2.0 to 6.1 in a number of steps and I found that adding side surrounds and getting that info out of the front L and R speakers produced a significant gain in clarity, as did getting a centre channel that was tonally matched to the L and R front speakers. Centre speakers that weren't tonally matched delivered improvements in some areas, especially clarity, but the tonal shift as sounds or speech moved between the front L or R speaker and the centre was too distracting.
The move from 5.1 to 6.1 was the last change I made, still back when I only had a DVD player. I liked the increased sense of envelopment I got from 6.1 soundtracks but the gains in clarity were very much smaller and, overall, I felt that the 6th channel was pushing my limits in the "value for money" stakes. I did a fair amount of experimenting with using Do;by PLX II or DTS Neo6 to synthesise a 6th channel from 5.1 material and decided that I tended to prefer 5.1 in 5.1 rather than synthesised 6.1 so the 6th speaker ended up only getting used for discs with 6.1 soundtracks. In fact I leave PLX II/Neo6 turned off for discs that don't have 6.1 soundtracks and I even prefer to listen to mono or stereo soundtracks in mono or stereo.
I did much less experimenting when I bought my PS3 and started watching BD movies. I find the higher definition audio soundtracks much more involving than the compressed DVD soundtrack formats but, overall, I find I still prefer 5.1 soundtracks in 5.1. There are no 6.1 tracks I've come across on BD so I only use the 6th speaker with 7.1, folding the rear 2 channels into one. Once again, I find the increased envelopment obtained with the rear surround channels beneficial but only when those channels are present on the disc. I don't find synthesising 6.1 channels out of 5.1 any more preferable to just listening to them in 5.1 with the BD audio formats than with DVD. I do think I would find 7.1 marginally better than 6.1 and I might be tempted if I could comfortably place 2 rear surrounds in my open plan area but that's impossible.
My feeling is that there's big gains in moving from 2.0 or 2.1 to 5.1, or even 3.1 or 4.1. There is a gain in adding rear surrounds for discs with 6.1 or 7.1 soundtracks but it's a much smaller gain. I don't see any advantage in having a 6.1 or 7.1 system when playing 5.1 discs. Small sound gain and few discs with rear surround info makes it hard to justify going to 7.1 on a cost benefit basis in my opinion.
So that's my take. Until there's a lot of 7.1 channel discs out there and you're viewing a fair number of them, I'd recommend sticking with 5.1. You'll lose a little with those movies that do use rear surround soundtracks but not much, and you won't lose anything on those discs with 5.1 or fewer tracks. If you're feeling indulgent and want to go for 7.1, knowing that you are indulging yourself, I think you'd enjoy it but I never regard indulgences as providing good value for money. That doesn't stop me from having a few. I went into 6.1 thinking it was probably going to be an indulgence and I haven't decided differently. It's an indulgence I enjoy when the soundtrack does have rear channels but it's not an everyday indulgence for me.
David Aiken
the PLIIx does a great job with the back speakers. Really good. With typical 5.1 mixes (drama, comedy), the backs are mostly silent even when enabled. Not for most action flicks though.
Last night I watched a real highbrow flick (Tarantino [acting]/Clooney/Keitel...guess LOL, BD only in Canada) and with PLIIx on for the backs I could hear lots of stuff very clearly going on behind me, which made sense because my POV as viewer was in the middle of a barroom brawl (to put it mildly). I'm only using this film and scene as an e.g. because it was yesterday, plenty of others. Oh yeah, I eat up that type of stuff, way too late to grow up now...
Are the backs worth the $$? Probably not, but who doesn't have a spare set of speakers hanging around? They don't have to be that great to do the job, and for most people will have to be smallish anyway. I'm the opposite of David: I couldn't fit a single back speaker due to my room config (floor-to-ceiling window in middle of back wall, covered though) so had to go for two.
That's not a "real highbrow flick". That's a fun trashy flick.
My problem in the rear is that the wall behind my right hand side is a 2 metre wide archway into a hallway. I can't stick a speaker in the middle of the archway which is where it would end up if I went 7.1.
David Aiken
There are "some". I have 4 in my meagre BD collection so far.
I think most people would use Dolby PLIIx for the backs with a 5.1 track...it works pretty well for movies with active surround channels.
Dolby PLIIz is 9.1 and will likely start appearing in AVRs soon. The speaker positioning charts for 11.1 are out there, so somebody's planning ahead...
Reports are generally that Transporter 3 BD is close to "reference" in PQ and sound. The Transporter (1) BD is awful quality, but the movie not bad IMO. Transporter 2 BD is OK, but the movie isn't that great.
I just checked my collection and found 4: Prince Caspian, The Golden Compass, Hellboy II, and Pan's Labyrinth. Interesting that 2 of them are basically children's pictures and the other 2 are directed by Guillermo Del Toro. Perhaps there are some trends apparent there.
Surprisingly, I found a DTS HDMA 6.1 soundtrack, something I didn't think existed: X-Men III The Last Stand. It had a DTS ES 6.1 soundtrack o n DVD so obviously they just remastered that soundtrack. Shows I was wrong when I said there were no high def 6.1 tracks.
David Aiken
Stargate is 6.1 DTS-HD High Resolution Audio and Top Gun is 6.1 DTS-HD Master Audio. There are a few more, but I can't remember which ones right now.
I have T2 on LD, T2: Special Edition -- Judgement Day on LD, T2: Ultimate Edition on DVD, T2: Extreme Edition on DVD and T2: Judgement Day on Blu-ray. For the betting crowd, what are the odds that I'll have the new Blu-ray version, T2: Skynet Edition , when it comes out?
I've got Stargate. The packaging says DTS HDMA 5.1 and I just played the opening and checked. It comes up as 5.1 on my info display.
BUT I'm in Australia and the packaging also says I have a zone B release. I also don't have the words "Extended Cut" on the front cover of the packaging and there's an Australian PG rating label over the area of the front picture where the figures appear below the pyramid to the left and there's a couple of other differences to the packaging so we got a different print run for the cover. Though the cover doesn't say "Extended Cut" I had the DVD with the extended cut and the length and contend of the BD seems identical, at least from memory. The timing of my BD copy matches the timing of the US BD release according to Amazon's info but Amazon doesn't say how many channels the soundtrack is.
I checked 2 US reviews. One says "English Dolby Digital Surround EX/English DTS-HD High Resolution" and doesn't state the number of channels for the DTS HD track. The other says "English: Dolby Digital 5.1 EX/English: DTS-HD 5.1". My packaging states "English DTS-HD Master Audio 5.1; English Dolby Digital 5.1".
It may actually be a zone free disc with packaging for release here, or it may be a different release to what you get in the US, but since it was released here after the US I would expect it to be the same material including soundtrack and from the reviews I could quickly find I can see nothing that indicates a 6.1 HD track for the US issue.
You may have a 5.1 Dolby Digital EX track but that's not a high def soundtrack. You may be picking up on that because my copy defaults to the Dolby low def soundtrack unless I manually select the DTS HD MA track. I've got my PS3 set to PCM output so of course the display for the track shows 5.1 (EX is matrixed, not discrete) and it's 5.1 channels that gets passed to my receiver.
Interesting. I can't say you're wrong about your release of Stargate having a high def 6.1 track but mine doesn't and it's hard to imagine Universal preparing separate 5.1 and 6.1 high def tracks for release in different zones.
The above may be a lot of words to waste on whether or not this disc is 6.1 but it's of interest to me as to just how much the local releases here vary from the US release.
David Aiken
The back of the case says DTS HD High Resolution ES Audio (the ES refers to an extra channel) and the PS3 says DTS-HD HR 6.1 channel when I ask for disc information. The UPC is 0 12236 19155 1 80 and it's from Lionsgate (the second pressing, as the first had some subtitle issues), if that makes any difference.
Since you have a PS3, as long as you have the latest firmware, you have decoding of DTS-HD Master Audio and DTS-HD High Resolution Audio. If your copy of Stargate says DTS-HD MA on the PS3, then it's a different encoding than the US version -- ours is DTS-HD HR at 3Mb/s CBR.
The back of my case says DTS HD Master Audio 5.1, my PS3 confirms that, mine has a different bar code number, and the packaging says Universal and Studio Canal with no mention of Lionsgate.
Obviously different releases.
Interesting. I'd rather have HD MA than HD HR, but I'd also prefer 6.1 to 5.1. On balance I'll go for the HD MA. I'd rather have lossless sound with fewer channels but I'd also rather have a disc that I know I can play and it sounds like I probably wouldn't be able to play the US release.
David Aiken
Is it common in Australia you can't play U.S. BDs? From what I've read, relatively few European BDs can't be played in the U.S., so far. Unlike with DVDs, on "regular" players. I don't have any non-U.S./Canada BDs yet.
Agree with you on the lossless vs the multi-channel lossy though, and in fact I refuse to buy any BDs without lossless (I'm pointing at YOU, Warner Brothers, who have lossless on less than 50% of your BD releases...but then you never did care about sound quality).
The data on the stats site in Joe's response to me indicates that 69.35% of the BD releases listed are region free. Assuming that list is a pretty complete list of US releases, then roughly 70% of US releases are playable on BD players sold in Australia and 30% aren't.
The situation is different with DVDs. There was a federal court case here years ago which resulted in a ruling that region free players did not breach copyright laws. If an Australian resident legally acquires a disc, paying copyright charges in the process, they are legally entitled to be able to play it and if that requires a region free player the resident has the right to have a region free player. As a result, nearly every DVD player sold in Australia has automatically been region free for some years.
Now with the introduction of BD, we're back to zoned players. I haven't come across a region free BD player. The situation isn't as bad with BD because more stuff is region free than ever was the case with DVDs, but I'm not aware of any BD players that are region free when it comes to playing DVDs. That means I've had to keep my old DVD player in order to play my few Region 1 DVDs.
I've bought a few BDs from the US but the problem is often getting reliable info on whether or not the disc is region free. Amazon sometimes reports region free discs as Zone A so you have to take a risk based on what the reviews have said. One of the discs I've got from Amazon is region free and plays fine but it states it's Zone A on the packaging so I can't really fault Amazon too much. The review was right and they weren't.
What's interesting is what is region free and what isn't. It varies depending on the film with some labels but some other labels seem to go entirely one way or the other. There doesn't seem to be a consistent rule followed by everyone. It depends on the label and I've seen that I can't rely on the label's packaging to tell me whether the disc is region free or what kind of a soundtrack it really has. That's even more frustrating in many ways than having to deal with the zone system and the fact that sometimes material I want isn't released locally or only gets released months or years after release overseas. I'm quite happy to pay for the discs I want and to purchase them legally, but I'm annoyed when zoning means that I simply can't get and play a disc I want without also having to buy a second player from overseas in order to play it, and then also have to deal with any problems related to differences in our electricity supplies.
David Aiken
The link below will take you to the Blu-raystats.com site. Just change the audio to DTS-MA or DTS-HD and click "filter" on the right. Not all discs list the number of channels, but many of them do.
These discs are probably Region A, so the actual stats may be different for other regions depending on the distributor. For instance, the T3 encoding for the US DVD is Dolby Digital, while the UK version of T3 on DVD has a DTS soundtrack. Warner Bros in the US always dicks us with no DTS, but WB has always stood for crap audio. Even their Dolby TrueHD encodes use the default Dialog Normalization "ON" setting for Blu-ray.
Just checked the 6.1 list. Apart from X-Men 3, the only one I have is Reservoir Dogs which is listed as a Lionsgate release. My copy is from Lionsgate but the packaging just says DTS HD 5.1. The PS3 says DTS HD HR 6.1 so I do have a second 6.1 disc.
David Aiken
I only have Warlords, Oldboy and Pan's Labyrinth. I reviewed The Doors, which is also 7.1.
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We must be the change we wish to see in the world. -Gandhi
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