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In Reply to: RE: Lexicon busted passing Oppo off as a $3500 Blu-ray player posted by soundnut on January 18, 2010 at 06:37:19
I don't trust the folks at Audioholics to look at an audio board and tell me whether there are no changes or whether Lexicon has bypassed the stereo and 7.1 channels’ output muting circuits, or made other changes. We all knew months ago that Theta, Lexicon and Ayre were going to use the Oppo as their starting platform. I really hate it when a reviewer goes on the warpath and spawns minions carrying pitchforks and torches all over the internet. I'm not rushing out to buy a BD-30 but Lexicon did nothing wrong and until you A/B it with the Oppo there is no way to know whether you'll hear a difference.
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We must be the change we wish to see in the world. -Gandhi
Follow Ups:
It's a little hard to judge from the photos, but it certainly doesn't LOOK like Lexicon changed any components. For example the capacitors look the same. If they had switched to Vishay resistors, for example, they would definitely look different from the standard resistors, which look like carbon film for the most part as best I can tell - take a look on Michael Percy's website to see what different resistors look like. The Vishays look a little bit like power diodes with radial rather than axial leads, not tan colored round small cylinders. So at least there is no VISIBLE evidence that ANY components were changed. The other main class of components to be changed are the ICs, and I have to assume that Audioholics looked at the labels on the ICs to see if they were different, but maybe that's assuming too much for you. However, this is not in general an expensive proposition to do.Bypassing a muting circuit just takes a few wires, and changing the grounding again is mostly a matter of re-routing wiring, unless you redesign a circuit board, in which case why would the circuit boards look the same? Again, not a high price endeavor. Damping compound is also relatively inexpensive.
Regardless, I think you're missing the point that all of these changes are relatively INexpensive, whereas what Lexicon is charging is anything but. Back when it was popular to take an inexpensive CD player and modify it with new ICs, resistors and caps, most modifiers charged a few hundred bucks. Even allowing for inflation, increasing the cost 5-fold seems excessive, when the only visible "refinement" is the case.
Unless you're from the Steven Wright school of circuit modification, "Last night, someone broke into my house and replaced all my furniture with exact duplicates!"
By the way, more commentary on this in the General Forum - posted by Dan Banquer, a manufacturer, and see comments by Charles Hansen, another manufacturer, who says Lexicon has done this in the past, and minces no words about saying this puts other manufacturers in a bad light. First time offenders might get the benefit of the doubt, however, for what sure sounds like a repeat offender, I think you're being way too generous.
Edits: 01/19/10
Yes, I was giving Lexicon the benefit of the doubt. But after realizing that they don't even use the SE version of the Oppo, I am no longer in the mood to argue on their behalf.
The broader issue I was speaking to is that we pay for more than just hardware but the hours of testing different parts--what Kevin Hayes of VAC calls voicing. You really can't put a price on that, and it's what I appreciate most about the design of my components. But that's probably why I ended up with VAC amplification and the Oppo SE instead of Lexicon products.
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We must be the change we wish to see in the world. -Gandhi
Manufacturers and modders put a price on it all the time and, usually, it bears no relationship to research and development, design, prototypes or "voicing". It's more likely based on the client base and knowing what the small market will accept in pricing.
-Wendell
It also has to do with the manufacturer's expertise. Lexicon has always been known more for its processors and amps than its disc machines. It offered the rebadged Oppo to its dealers and customers at a premium. BFD.
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We must be the change we wish to see in the world. -Gandhi
How would you feel if you bought one and later learned it was a stock $500 player in a fancy box at a $3000 premium. You wouldn't feel ripped off? As I said, they know their base of potential customers.
-Wendell
I'd rather discuss reality than hypotheticals. I never would buy a Lexicon because I've listened and prefer other gear. The main products I've bought that I've regretted are an expensive Classe Omega disc player and bunch of cheap bicycle pumps. My point is you can waste your money buying expensive crap and cheap crap--all kinds of crap--if you don't do some homework first. In the case of the Lexicon, the only people who would buy this probably have all Lexicon amp and preamp gear--just want to stay in the family, and don't mind getting a rebadged Oppo (as it's well known now what they're getting).
The other point I wish to make is that OEMing is common practice. It's not like releasing a bad or dangerous product, like those baby carriages that chop off the tips of fingers when the canopy is collapsed or cars with faulty breaks or pet food with lethal ingredients. On a scale of product horror shows, Lexicon seems fairly benign to me and while we are not impressed with what they did, it doesn't seem worth the outrage it provoked. Not by a longshot.
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We must be the change we wish to see in the world. -Gandhi
It is NOW well known and if someone chooses to buy it, fine. It wasn't and wouldn't have been well known if left to Lexicon. You don't see a problem, I do. OEM is fine but their is implied added value by the company selling the final product. If there isn't, I consider it fraud. If you don't so be it.
-Wendell
Actually the definition of OEM implies no changes in the actual product--simply rebranding.
Lexicon announced a long time ago that they would OEM the Oppo. One would hope they would have improved the board/power supply or at least used the SE version to rebadge, but they never said they would. As for the cost, that's what happens when companies OEM things. They pass onto the customer all their costs, charging a premium and using their branding to target specific dealers and customers. Happens a lot.
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We must be the change we wish to see in the world. -Gandhi
I don't recall ever reading anywhere that Lexicon was just going to rebrand the Oppo BDP-83 and sell it in a Lexicon billeted case.I do recall reading something about Lexicon using the Oppo design as a "base" player implying that Lexicon would be adding their own refinements or something to that effect. If that isn't misleading, then I don't know what is!
BTW, the term "OEM" only means original equipment manufacturer and nothing more, it may imply rebranding but it doesn't indicate one way or another how much of the product has been sourced elsewhere. Those three letters by themselves, used outside of web discussion, are misleading when applied to a final product without provision of details about secondary or aftermarket modifications.
Here is the Wikipedia entry on the OEM confusion:
"Confusingly, OEM may also refer to a company that purchases a component made by a second company for use in the purchasing company's products. For instance if company 'A Inc' purchases optical drives from company 'B Ltd' that will be used in 'A Inc' computers , then 'company A' is the OEM.
An even more confusing, contradictory definition for OEM is a company that sells the product of the second company under its own brand name.
Companies who follow the above practices are better termed VARs (value-added resellers) or resellers, respectively."
The idea of referring to Lexicon as a VAR (value-added reseller) is even more questionable (IMO) when little value is added beyond a new case and relabeling.
Cheers,
AuPh
Edits: 01/22/10
No one ever said there weren't shady things going on in audio/video land, but what they have done is to shade into black. And no doubt if enough people buy those things Lexicon will definitely be "in the black", singing We're in the money! We're in the money! all the way to the bank.
Horrible.
deal with such things as certification for industry standards, consult with Oppo, employ an assembly line of workers in Indiana and offer an expensive alternative to a cheaply made Chinese product. The nerve of these guys. We should storm their office and burn down the joint.
The way you guys evaluate products and markets, it's a miracle every US job hasn't been exported by now.
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We must be the change we wish to see in the world. -Gandhi
... let me get this straight:
Your idea of keeping jobs in America is to sub-contract for products manufactured in China, use a questionable certification scheme to give the product "official" stature, have a small group of underpaid U.S. workers drop the Asian manufactured player into a heavier billeted case, relabel the player with a well known American brand name and then charge seven fold for that privilege to unsuspecting high-end buyers?
Yeah dude, that's REAL entrepreneurship! ;^D
AuPh
I blame this sense of entitlement where you think everything that's worth owning should be cheap. That kind of thinking is what outsourced shoes to sweat shops, produce to South America and consumer electronics to Asia. Now yes, it's come to this. Companies from Runco to Lexicon have to rebadge Chinese-made products or go out of business. But it's beyond luxury items; it's the mindset that we must find a cheap deal for something to be worth buying instead of rewarding a manufacturer for workmanship and knowing their trade. I've never regretted paying for quality, but I have regretted buying cheap gear to save money.
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We must be the change we wish to see in the world. -Gandhi
> > > "I blame this sense of entitlement where you think everything that's worth owning should be cheap." < < <
So, as an alternative to buying obviously outsourced products sold at a cheap price that provide a good value for cost ratio you'd say that it's okay for a "manufacturer" to purchase the same outsourced product in quantity that is being sold for a reasonable price, drop it into their own fancy case, slap on their highfalutin name and sell it for a premium price?
Sorry dude, but as usual, your logic eludes me! ;^>
> > > "Now yes, it's come to this. Companies from Runco to Lexicon have to rebadge Chinese-made products or go out of business. But it's beyond luxury items; it's the mindset that we must find a cheap deal for something to be worth buying instead of rewarding a manufacturer for workmanship and knowing their trade." < < <
This isn't supposed to be a political site, but I think it's fair to say, regardless of where one stands on hot-button issues, that we've been wrecked by many years of unfair trade practices complicated by deficit spending (borrowing, to pay for wars which should not be prosecuted without tax increases, etc.) that has resulted in a depressed economy which only supports cheaper manufactured goods for most Americans. A/V is no different than other aspects of the national economy when it comes to making choices, but those who CAN afford better gear don't like being suckered and made to look foolish for buying repackaged, relabeled products.
That, "my friend," is the bottom line.
AuPh
This is not "news" and this is not without precedent either, as Lexicon did not alter its RT-20 after OEMing it from Marantz. I can pull up many threads like this from mid-summer after Lexicon's announcement.
Topic: Lexicon to launch an OPPO clone
Posted: 25 Jul 2009 at 12:08pm
the BD-30 is 7 times the oppo price!
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We must be the change we wish to see in the world. -Gandhi
Yes, I understand your point. However as noted it does appear that Lexicon didn't change any parts, at least according to the photos. And leaving aside possible damping of the chassis and re-routing of wiring, if there were no parts changes it is difficult to imagine a significant change in the sound - otherwise no manufacturer could put out a consistent product.
Maybe so, but the biggest mistake was failing to use the SE version of the Oppo. If a company is going to OEM a product for a higher-end market, the least it can do is use the better version of that product.
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We must be the change we wish to see in the world. -Gandhi
They examined every single component of the boards of both players, and they A/B tested every aspect of the audio performance.
They are the same player. Lexicon just took a $500 player, slapped a new faceplate on it & marked it up to $3500.
I would call that unethical, myself.
Bobbo :-)
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We must be the change we wish to see in the world. -Gandhi
The faith is in the evidence. The photos are identical, the parts are all identical, the A/B comparison charts of the lab measurements are identical... How much proof do you need?
He must have been a juror on the O.J. murder trial : )
Components that measure poorly can sound good, and vice versa. So it stands to reason that components that measure the same with a voltmeter can sound different.But now that I realize the Lexicon is based not on the Oppo BDP-83SE but on the standard edition, I am no longer in the mood to give Lexicon the benefit of the doubt.
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We must be the change we wish to see in the world. -Gandhi
Edits: 01/19/10
Nothing has been changed except the faceplate. Maybe something under the green circuit board does the Lexicon magic? Yeah, right.
Or whether, for example, the stereo and 7.1 channels’ output muting circuits have been bypassed from those photos.
Or whether dampening/grounding/isolation issues have been changed.
Or any of a thousand other parameters that the photo and the Audioholics reviewer (who's on a smear campaign) can't easily ascertain.
Didn't think so.
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We must be the change we wish to see in the world. -Gandhi
...there was $2000 worth of new resistors in the Lexicon unit. Did you compare the pictures of the two units? Did you look at the pics of the back panels? Did you compare the measurements of the two units? If you can find anything at all that makes the Lexicon worth $3000 more than the Oppo, please point it out.
Edits: 01/18/10
> > ...there was $2000 worth of new resistors in the Lexicon unit. Did you compare the pictures of the two units? Did you look at the pics of the back panels? Did you compare the measurements of the two units? < <
Changes like those I previously asked you about would not affect the audio board topology, nor would they be visible in the picture. I thought you would understand that, but evidently you needed me to spell it out for you.
> > If you can find anything at all that makes the Lexicon worth $3000 more than the Oppo, please point it out. < <
The hobby we're in is called Audio. It involves LISTENING. I have not listened to the Lexicon so I can't say. You haven't either, yet you are willing to form a conclusion based on inconclusive evidence. When a high end engineer works on a component, sometimes hundreds or even thousands of hours of what audio designers call "voicing" is used to justify the final product and pricepoint. When we buy an audio component, we're not just paying for a bunch of parts but for the designer's expertise in deciding which parts to use and how to use them.
That's why you pay $2.00 for a can of Ragu yet you pay $20.00 for a plate of spaghetti at your favorite Italian restaurant for what are essentially the same ingredients.
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We must be the change we wish to see in the world. -Gandhi
:O)
you really aren't in a position to say.
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We must be the change we wish to see in the world. -Gandhi
I'm sure the fancy faceplate and the deeper blue lights make a significant improvement in the sound over the standard Oppo unit that's $3000 less. And if I was someone who bought the Lexicon unit, I'd think the same thing after extensive listening tests. After all, who wants to admit they got ripped off?
I just can't decide whether your behavior is more like the humbug Wizard, the melted witch or Dorothy's little dog Toto. ;O)What I will say is this: If, and let me reiterate ...IF... Lexicon is dropping a player that they've sourced from Oppo or parent company BBK (the same Chinese manufacturer which supplies Oppo's $500 BDP-83) into a heavier chassis and then charging $3500 a pop for 'em without providing any noteworthy performance enhancements and modifications with higher quality parts then it is a deception that their potential customers should be clued in about.
While it may be entirely legal for brand name labels to source their products from OEMs, repackage and charge whatever they want, it isn't ethical to deceive shoppers who think that they are buying the "best" bang for their high-end buck; that seems to be the consensus on most A/V sites, discussion boards and blogs as well. Of course, as always, YMMV; feel free to dissent.
BTW, I'll wager that I've read a lot more on this developing story than you have so in that regard I'm probably a quite a bit better informed than you appear to be (from multiple sources). Do your homework, and then jump back into the discussion.
Cheers,
AuPh
Edits: 01/19/10
We already knew that.
I'm not convinced the Audioholics dudes know what modifications look like on an audio board--know what Vishay resistors look like, for example. They know the board topology is the same--but everyone knew that before cracking open the Lexicon chassis because (again) Lexicon announced it was using the Oppo months ago. I'm also not convinced the potential dampening/isolation/grounding changes from the chassis have no impact on the sound. On some components you just put a shakti stone on the chassis or a set of Aurios underneath and it makes a big impact. That there is zero impact on audio, as Audioholics claims, to me says the reviewer probably isn't attuned to differences in sound, although I'd have to do a comparison to confirm.
The Audioholics dudes acted like Lexicon broke the 10 commandments on what is a fairly common practice in audio. The rest of you joined the lynch mob. Sorry, but I'm more sober in my assessment. If that means I take insults from people like Hertz and you, whose judgment has not really impressed me in the past BTW, so be it.
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We must be the change we wish to see in the world. -Gandhi
Yes, everyone knew that the Oppo BDP-83 was going to be used by Ayers, Theta and Lexicon as a base player from which to build their own designs. I'm pretty sure that the logical assumption most A/V-philes would make is that performance would be ratcheted up by these high-end manufacturers with all sorts of modifications along with high quality parts as per the Nuforce edition along with proprietary firmware tweaks in addition to having a heavier case. That apparently has not occurred if the Audioholics testing is accurate.
> > > "I'm also not convinced the potential dampening/isolation/grounding changes from the chassis have no impact on the sound." < < <
Of course it "might" muffle a modest amount of internal noise assuming it was noticeable in the first place, ...but $3000 worth? Trust me, better component isolation can be achieved for a heck of a lot less. As this story unfolds it looks more and more like Lexicon may have gotten caught playing a shell game on their customers, the "shell" being a fancy face plate and a bought & paid label for THX certification (which is probably a scam as well).
> > > "The Audioholics dudes acted like Lexicon broke the 10 commandments on what is a fairly common practice in audio." < < <
OEM resourcing may be common practice, but given the growing outrage over this faux pas a better analogy might be the fabled money-changers being beaten from the high-end temple. ;O)
Cheers,
AuPh
The ear is ultimately the only instrument that matters when it comes to determining the quality of a component. If you think a voltmeter has all the answers for you, think again. Why would a Vishay resistor measure differently than other resistors, especially since you'd use the same resistor value for any you'd replace! Why would you expect different measurements? Sound is a different matter.
> > OEM resourcing may be common practice, but given the growing outrage over this faux pas a better analogy might be the fabled money-changers being beaten from the high-end temple. ;O) < <
Growing outrage on the internet is like growing tumbleweeds in the desert. I'd be shocked if any of you "outraged" consumers had bought the Lexicon, or had even been tempted to buy it. You're just looking to join a lynch mob. Now that I realize Lexicon based its BDP on the non-SE Oppo, I'm no longer in the mood to defend the company, but I'm certainly not impressed with Audioholics and their "scientific" tests that were about as scientific as a crucifixion.
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We must be the change we wish to see in the world. -Gandhi
;O)
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