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In Reply to: RE: A more sober and sane article on the Lexicon from Chris Martens posted by Wendell Narrod on January 28, 2010 at 10:26:37
Two points that show why Lexicon's collaboration with Oppo was advantageous and why Lexicon can charge a premium for its target market, namely existing Lexicon owners:
1. Lexicon worked with Oppo on the design, and Lexicon's recommendations were incorporated by Oppo.
2. Lexicon assembled the rebadge in the US (expensive) and installed firmware that optimizes how the player works with other Lexicon gear.
Audioholics went on a smear campaign by pretending the Lexicon and Oppo were targeting the same market and that Lexicon didn't have a relationship with Oppo. The Lexicon BD-30 is for anyone who has a Lexicon pre/pro/amp setup and can afford the premium price. Otherwise, buy the Oppo. No one is asking you to be thankful that Lexicon was involved and had its improvements incorporated in the Oppo design, but the least you could do is stop this nonsense about fraud, which is a term with legal ramifications that are clearly not applicable here. You decided to join the Audioholics lynch mob like a lemming. But that was then. This is now. It's time to snap out of it.
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We must be the change we wish to see in the world. -Gandhi
Follow Ups:
Thanks for telling me what my opinion should be. You're an apologist to the point of seeming to have a vested interest in the issue. I don't have a dog in the fight but know when a business practice smells."At any rate, the video and audio performance characteristics of the Lexicon BD-30 and Oppo BDP-83 are essentially identical, with one small difference. The much heavier chassis casework of the BD-30 makes its mechanical operation noticeably quieter than the Oppo."
Tell me again how a company is justified in a seven fold retail price increase for machines with identical performance. THX certification was for marketing purposes. Flashing firmware is trivial. They are charging $3000 for the casework which is fine as long as they are upfront about it.
-Wendell
Edits: 01/28/10
This isn't a baby carriage that is chopping off fingertips, or pet food with a poisonous ingredient or cars where the accelerator peddle sticks. No one is being hurt here and nothing was stolen. No one is going to accidently buy the Lexicon and then realize they were robbed, like you audioholics dudes are pretending. The reason Lexicon is charging a premium is because a certain amount of time and cost went into the project with Oppo, the assembly is done in Indiana instead of Taiwan and the rebadging and firmware means that Lexicon can charge a premium to its clientele. They'll only buy the Lexicon for the reason I've cited three or four times now, which is they have other Lexicon products and want an all-Lexicon setup where the firmware is seamless with the other gear.And no, I don't have a vested interest in this. I just think it's the height of ignorance and slander to accuse Lexicon of fraud. We all knew about the rebadge last summer, along with Ayre and Theta, which are also based on the Oppo and cost thousands more than the Lexicon.
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We must be the change we wish to see in the world. -Gandhi
Edits: 01/28/10
Don't want to get involved in the discussion too much LOL, we did that many months ago elsewhere(s), but the only reported firmware difference is the Oppo logo was replaced with the Lexicon one.Well, that and the Lexicon firmware may not be as up-to-date as the Oppo FW, since I don't know if Oppo will give Lex time to change logos in new versions before Oppo releases it to the public. Certainly the current Lex FW isn't as up-to-date as the current BDP-83 FW...not a big diff for many people, but some "higher end" wants were addressed.
Edit: oh yeah, one other thing the new BDP-83 FW seemed to do, though I have no proof: make the BDP-83 noticeably quieter. I could swear the fan comes on less often and slower than before with the newest Jan./10 FW, and also the drawer opens and closes smoother/quieter. Both these things are apparently controllable via FW. I sit 9' from the 83 and can just barely hear those noises now with some strain, whereas I easily could before (no audio on of course) and I haven't moved the 83 since I got it ~7 months ago. Maybe even quieter than a nice box can suppress them if the "old" FW is being used...just saying...but don't know.
Edits: 01/28/10
> > Don't want to get involved in the discussion too much LOL, we did that many months ago elsewhere(s), but the only reported firmware difference is the Oppo logo was replaced with the Lexicon one. < <That's what Audioholics reported, but they didn't test both players with other Lexicon gear to see the if it does integrate easier in an all Lexicon system. Given that the Audioholics reviewer didn't test it either player with other Lexicon gear, how would he know the difference?
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We must be the change we wish to see in the world. -Gandhi
Edits: 01/28/10
But I think we have to consider that the primary features people would really get on, the audio and video "processing" hardware, is the same in both models (based on their inspection). Any differences would then be mainly operational functionality adjusted by FW. Oppo themselves have said that many other attributes people might like cannot be offered because the chip sets are a limiting factor, not firmware. By "processing" I am including the analog output stages, anything that directly affects what we see/hear after taken from the disc.If somebody asked me for an opinion on which model to buy, Lex or Oppo, and I said the Oppo, I would not think the person the slightest bit "stupid" if they bought the Lex instead. That is assuming $3.5k to them is about as financially "significant" as $500 is to me. There are plenty of people in that situation. It's nicer looking (opinion) and more exclusive and has a nice name and what the hell...
I think at some point we have to stop being audio/video "mathematicians" and come to the reasonable conclusion that for all practical purposes two things are "the same", even if they aren't mathematically congruent.
Edits: 01/28/10
I think that misses the point. Under their agreement, Lexicon made design recommendations to Oppo. Those recommendations were all taken, according to Marc Kellom, Harman International’s head of High Performance A/V products. So the fact that the Lexicon and Oppo are the same implies that Lexicon, at its own expense and expertise, brought the quality of the Oppo up to its standards.For rabid Oppo fans to then parade around the internet acting like Lexicon broke the 10 commandments is quite ironic, considering they are enjoying Lexicon's improvements to the Oppo without compensating Lexicon. So if anyone is being robbed here, it may well be Lexicon.
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We must be the change we wish to see in the world. -Gandhi
Edits: 01/28/10
Is it not agreed that that's a larger improvement than anything Harman suggested? Or was that their suggestion, and they chose not to use it? I say you're travelling a lonely road my friend...which is not a bad thing. :)
I do have Harman and Lex gear in two of my rooms. Oppo also in one of those two, and another room too. I'm not biased. Just cheap.
Yes, it makes more sense to criticize Lexicon for not OEM'ing the SE version of the Oppo, but I suppose the priority was placed on HDMI with analog performance an afterthought.
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We must be the change we wish to see in the world. -Gandhi
I haven't attacked you once during this exchange. I expressed an opinion. You can't deal with someone who disagrees with your position. It's best we
drop this as it is going nowhere.
BTW, I had never heard of audioholics before this thread began on the Lexicon/Oppo player.
-Wendell
You're pretty mild compared to the hordes of irate high end haters who saw this Audioholics report as proof that mid-fi and low-fi is all anyone needs. They are ignorant. And so is the Audioholics reviewer who didn't understand the relationship between Lexicon and Oppo or Lexicon's target market.
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We must be the change we wish to see in the world. -Gandhi
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