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In Reply to: RE: Okay, now I know I can safely.... posted by stehno on March 07, 2015 at 02:43:55
"So when I speak negatively about the quality of music for 2-ch. systems you don't have any apparent issues. But when I speak equally negative about the quality of music for multi-ch. systems you have issues? How is that so?"
When you speak negatively about *any* playback system using the hyperbole you do, I tend to dismiss it as the ranting of audiophile snob. Sorry. As for how is this so, it's so because I have a fairly decent multi-channel playback system and many *very* good source discs/files and to my ears they sound very, very good. And I certainly do not hear this atrocious noise floor that you keep referring to. There is virtually NO noise, just a pant load of great music.
"If you disagree with our playback system's levels of musicality, then you give clear indication you know not what you speaketh."
There you go again with the hyperbole. Dismissing out of hand my experiences. That's audio snobbery, IMHO.
"How do you weigh in on this? Do you think Harley, Valin, and Atkinson, and others are out to lunch on this matter?"
Yes, they are out to lunch. Now if someone like Michael Bishop or Bob Ludwig made the same claims, I'd tend to assign more merit to them. But the aforementioned "critics" spend their daze (pun intended) dreaming up new and ever over-reaching phrases for what they claim to hear. And every couple of months they are proclaiming that the latest and greatest - exceptionally expensive - geegaw has now rendered all previous exceptionally expensive geegaws moot. Sorry, not buying it.
I sold top-end systems way back in the day and even then there were moments that were absolutely magical and that transported me to another place and time via the music retrieved from those grooves and pits/lands. We are now 40 years on from that time and the systems and speakers are ever so much better. Believing that I'm missing out on 85+% of the music is just plain silly, IMHO. But feel free to assign whatever arbitrary numbers you wish.
"Do you suppose they have as much or more opportunity than you to listen to live music?"
I dunno. I can tell you that I have been to a shit load of concerts - that's a technical term - and our systems, while not able to convey the size and majesty of the original event due to the limitations of little bitty drivers and the rooms we put them in, they are certainly capable of rendering a very adequate recreation of the event from a frequency response, channel balance, and PRAT (I hate that term) perspective.
And there is most certainly not a hugely elevated level of noise associated with those systems, that's just silly. My system is dead nuts silent until the music explodes in front of and around me. You hear a bunch of noise?
Yes, it does require a bit of imagination and suspension of disbelief in order to fully enjoy these little marvels (our systems) we have before us. And if you cannot summon that I am truly sad for you, you are really missing out on a ton of joy and merriment...
-RW-
Follow Ups:
It's hardly audio snobbery. It's called intellectual honesty.
But you should notice of the 3 I quoted, all are associated with audio publications. Making such intellectually honest statements certainly does not help them sell magazines. I suspect that's why we only hear them admit such things about 1 or twice every 10 years.
But that's fine.
BTW, Valin did not say only 15% of the music, he said, "15% of the magic".
Potentially a big difference. Now he did not explain what he meant but I assume he meant 15% of the believability or 15% of those highly desirable or sought after characteristics that a playback system is unable to reproduce.
IMO, it's more like 35 - 40% of the music that's inaudible.
But just to confirm whether or not you understand, try this little experiment. Next time you're listening to some percussive instruments, listen for maracas or windchimes. Close your eyes and envision based on what you hear, whether or not these little instruments sound like they are 3ft in length or diameter or more like 3 inches.
Enjoy your system.
I will do as you request and let you know what I hear.
My point about the critics was that, as you say, if they only speak the truth every 10 years or so and yet engage in deceptive writing all the rest of the time, why on earth would I lend any credence to their thoughts?
-RW-
BTW, if you're into choral or opera music, like piano these are the most tortuous types of music to sufficiently play back at live performance volumes. The universal distortions embedded in every system will cause a break up and/or flattening out, again causing the listener to whince or the proverbial ear bleed.
But again, if you attempt to listen for these things, you have to listen at volume levels approaching the live performance. Say in the 88 - 98db range. As nothing in the 60-65 db range will cause these issues.
If you're struggling to find music to listen to, I might have a CD around here that I burned (redbook format) I could mail to you with some excellent examples of the fatigue/ear bleeding I'm trying to describe.
Please contact me offlist and I'll give you my mailing address. And thanks for thinking of me, I truly appreciate it!
-RW-
RW, I burned a CD for you last night.
As mentioned in my email to you yesterday, I apologize as I never saw your email with your shipping address until yesterday.
I should get it out to you in the next day or so and I'll email some notes to you as to what to look for, etc.
I sent you an email.
Good point.I don't put a lot of stock into much of what they say either. But at least they know enough to speak the truth once or twice every 10 years as apposed to those other so-called experts who can't even speak the truth even once.
It would be great to have a fully functional clock. But even a broken clock is right at least twice a day. As opposed to a clock in pieces with no hands on the dial. Right?
An easier test actually for something to look for would be well-recorded piano piece that includes a lot of sharp notes high on the register and played back at volume levels approaching the live performance.
They say piano is the most difficult instrument to accurately reproduce. There's are lot of truth in that statement. But I think a more accurate way of saying it is, "All instruments are near equal in difficulty to reproduce. But the piano may be the most easily discerned to illustrate how far short of the mark our playback systems really are.
Perhaps the best way to look at it is, the piano is perhaps the most offense instrument when demonstrating how far short of the mark our PB systems really are.
The sharp piano notes at reasonably high volumes should make a bee-line to your ear much like a laser beam causing fatique, whincing, or "bleeding of the ear".
BTW, any music is tolerable to the ear at elevator music volumne levels.
Edits: 03/08/15
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