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"Early adopters problems" is no excuse!

128.114.22.181
Posted on October 19, 2007 at 16:37:53
jsm
Audiophile

Posts: 1887
Location: SF Bay Area
Joined: October 28, 2000
 We have seen posts that one shouldn't surprised to see people having problems playing newer BD discs, that kind of thing just goes along with being an early adopter, when the standards are still evolving. I think that is a bunch of (expletive deleted). I have been an early adopter for decades. I bought what I think was the first CD player, the Sony CDP-101. It still works and will play any CD I have, including the CD layer of hybrid SACD recordings. I bought a very early VHS machine (for $1400), and it played every VHS tape I ever put into it. My early DVD player has played every DVD I have put into it. But in all these cases a standard had been agreed upon.

If the standard is still evolving when you buy something, you are much more than an early adopter. You are buying the beta version of something, and you should be warned in big print, as you are with beta versions of software, that this isn't final, and may change. It may not even work in the end. Do the makers of BD players tell you that? I think not. Then they are not being honest or at least forthcoming. Add to this two competing formats, and you have a mess.

Joe

 

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I bought in realizing there would be issues. It's my fault I'm having problems., posted on October 19, 2007 at 17:21:27
oscar
Audiophile

Posts: 19522
Location: Fort Worth, TX
Joined: October 25, 2000
 Problems which should be correctable. If they are not, then I will get upset.

 

Careful - you might upset the fanboys with that kind of talk..., posted on October 19, 2007 at 18:52:53
racerguy
 ...and cause one of them to have a little bit of a hissy fit. :)

>>But in all these cases a standard had been agreed upon.<<

This is true; however, one thing to consider is that each of the standards you refer to were for essentially discrete technologies. The new video technologies are convergence products - they combine advanced video with advanced audio and and advanced communication, using much more sophisticated hardware and software to tie it all together.

The other thing to consider is that each of the standards you refer to contained no backward compatibility. CD players were a new thing - there wasn't a previous consumer digital device using optical media. VCRs were a new thing - there wasn't a previous consumer rotating-head cassette-type video machine. DVD was a new thing.

The current consumer devices are expected to have backward compatibility with previous technologies (CD, DVD-V/A, etc). This adds additional complexity to an already complex device.

>>If the standard is still evolving when you buy something, you are much more than an early adopter. You are buying the beta version of something<<

This is true; however, market realities caused this, not the companies or the technology. By any objective standard, HD-DVD is a more straightforward design - it's more of an evolutionary product. Detractors might call it simplistic or limited, but the fact is that it's somewhat less complex than Blu-ray, so the standard was completed first, and got to market first. Blu-ray was not ready for market, but there was no choice - the Blu-ray camp had to release what they had at the time, or HD-DVD would have gained the upper hand just by being first and having a window of no competition. If I were in charge of marketing at the BDA, I would have done exactly what they did.

>>You are buying the beta version of something, and you should be warned in big print....Do the makers of BD players tell you that?<<

Some do. As I mentioned yesterday in this post, Sony tells you this in the manual. It's definitely not in big print though, and neither the content providers nor the device manufacturers are going out of their way to make this well-known.

The unintended consequence is that not making this sort of information clear will actually help to prevent the adoption of hi-def formats. Based on the perceived sophistication and more impressive-looking specsheets, Blu-ray is being touted by a vocal group of zealots as the better of the two available formats. This actually backfires, because when people who might be interested in getting a hi-def player to go with their HDTV do their typically limited research, they discover that Blu-ray appears to be problematic and not ready for primetime.

If they've been exposed to the fanboy hype (which is hard to avoid if you do your research on the Interwebs), they'll assume that if the "better" format has this many problems, then the other format must be much worse.

It's actually the opposite - HD DVD has relatively few problems by comparison. Yes, it's less sophisticated, but it's way more than adequate for someone who just wants to watch hi-def movies using the HDTV and HTIB they bought at Best Buy. In fact, it even works well on high-end HT gear, despite the Blu-ray fanboys' attempts to cast it as ghetto.

An early adopter such as you who expects the first batch or two of products to be more "baked," and doesn't want to be an unwitting beta test guinea pig, should probably be looking at HD DVD if you're going to dabble in hi-def on silver discs. Leave Blu-ray to the geeks who don't mind weekly updates, early obsolescence, and constant incompatibility issues :-) And pay no attention to the fanboys - neither format is "better" than the other. They each have pros and cons; there's no clear winner no matter what the cheerleaders shout.

 

Blu-Ray has so much better upside that it is worth living with the growing pains., posted on October 19, 2007 at 19:03:44
oscar
Audiophile

Posts: 19522
Location: Fort Worth, TX
Joined: October 25, 2000
 That's why I've thrown my loyalty to blu-ray. I'll admit HD DVD has proven to be worthy contender in some respects but the format is already max'ed out. E.g. Paramount has already admitted the Special effects-laden "Transformers" couldn't support a lossless audio track because of those limitations.

It has proven difficult to show the benefits of PQ for Blu-ray but where I think the biggest difference will be is for the music video fan when hi-def videos with 5.1 24/96 lossless soundtracks will come out on a regular basis with Blu-ray.

 

Buying technology today based on promises of future features/functionality is not wise, posted on October 19, 2007 at 19:37:46
racerguy
 Technological history has shown that chances are high the promises will not be delivered upon. The pejorative term for what you call "upside" is "vaporware."


 

Upside is already available. E.g. "Dave Mathews", posted on October 19, 2007 at 19:43:57
oscar
Audiophile

Posts: 19522
Location: Fort Worth, TX
Joined: October 25, 2000
 Who knows, maybe HD DVD can produce something similar ? I'll be surprised if it happens though.

 

Do you mean "Live at RCMH?", posted on October 19, 2007 at 19:55:02
racerguy
 According to Amazon.com, it contains the following audio tracks:

PCM Stereo Sound (48kHz/24bit)
Dolby TrueHD 5.1 Surround Sound (96kHz/24bit)
Dolby Digital 5.1 Surround Sound (640 kbps)

Seems to me that HD DVD should be able to handle that. In the immortal words of Clara Peller, "Where's the beef?" :)

 

In the end, we're all dead. Meanwhile, have some fun!, posted on October 19, 2007 at 20:54:49
4season
 Sure, Blu-Ray has it's problems, and no one really knows whether it or HD DVD will be around a decade from now. But perfect or not, you can enjoy them right here and now. You wait a few years for things to sort themselves out, and you might be very very disappointed to find (1) You have grown older and missed out on a few years worth of fun, and (2) There will be all-new uncertainties to deal with, and that you can bank on.

I have HD DVD because I love movies like "Lost In Translation" and "Being John Malkovich".

I have Blu-Ray because I'm very keen to watch anime like "Tekkonkinkreet" and "Paprika".

You talk about owning a very early VHS machine, but I take it you never attempted to hear hifi soundtracks or play S-VHS recordings on it.

I'm not saying that I like how Blu-Ray was dumped on the market in an unfinished state, only that I'd like to see what I can do with it now that it's already here.

 

As I have posted repeatedly, I have not had one problem with a blu-ray disc or my PS3, posted on October 19, 2007 at 21:12:16
Jazz Inmate
Audiophile

Posts: 63589
Location: Bay Area, California
Joined: April 5, 2000
 Those of us who have had zero problems with any blu-ray discs or players are having a hard time reconciling these complaints with our flawless experience with blu-ray. And yes, whether you care to admit it or not, some players and software have been known to have problems when introduced. This actually has been observed in formats other than blu-ray. Shocking, huh? My new amp is having problems. None of my blu-rays or my PS3 has had so much as a hiccup.

Do you really think these minor issues with blu-ray are unprecedented?
Or do you wish that HD DVD was the only choice offered to consumers for high definition films?
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"I have found that if you love life, life will love you back." -Arthur Rubinstein (1887-1982)

 

all that audio (including uncompressed) and video takes up lots of gigs, posted on October 19, 2007 at 21:23:15
Jazz Inmate
Audiophile

Posts: 63589
Location: Bay Area, California
Joined: April 5, 2000
 That's what we've been trying to tell you. Blu-ray accomodates much more gigs worth of material. A fact you've been trying to ignore.
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"I have found that if you love life, life will love you back." -Arthur Rubinstein (1887-1982)

 

I think the bandwidth limitation (in addition to storage) severely constraints HD DVD., posted on October 19, 2007 at 22:10:56
oscar
Audiophile

Posts: 19522
Location: Fort Worth, TX
Joined: October 25, 2000
 Not so much so with DD+ but anything higher becomes an issue. Heck, they seem to have trouble getting any kind of lossless audio on most movie tracks.

Like I suggested, I'll be pleasantly surprised if HD DVD ever comes out with a music video with 5.1 24/96 lossless soundtracks. I'm anxiously awaiting the HD DVD "beef".

 

RE: Blu-Ray has so much better upside that it is worth living with the growing pains., posted on October 20, 2007 at 05:16:41
Jack G
Audiophile

Posts: 9741
Joined: September 24, 1999
 Actually, Transformers was heavily laden with interactive features, which BD is STILL incapable of offering. Secial effects had nothing to do with it. Critics seem to have given it good marks for audio.
Jack

 

Good post. I completely agree, posted on October 20, 2007 at 05:28:13
Jack G
Audiophile

Posts: 9741
Joined: September 24, 1999
 While I do support both formats, Its clear that Blu-Ray really doesn't have its act together. They arejust hoping people won't notice, and they'll fix everything before the masses find out. IMO, that's doubtfull.
The FW update for my Samsung, trashed my player, so now it cannot play a whole disc without having handshake issues in the middle. I'm debating whether or not to get another player, since there are going to be more issues coming up in the next few weeks. I also don't have alot invested in it.
As a side note, early preliminary evidence shows that some/many stand alone players will need yet another FW update to play Spiderman 3.
Jack

 

Who is "we," Jazz?, posted on October 20, 2007 at 08:49:38
racerguy
 Did you forget your antipsychotic medication again?

 

Oh, I agree that there is constraint relative to Blu-ray, posted on October 20, 2007 at 09:13:24
racerguy
 But I think your use of "severely" is harsh and exaggerated. On top of that, I wonder if it will make a real difference anytime soon, or if we can chalk it up to another one of your "upside" possibilities for the murky future.

We've yet to see a significant number of music video discs in either format. So far most of the ones that have been released don't have much in the way of hi-resolution audio tracks; probably because they were originally intended for DVD release and got "upgraded" to the newer video formats.

As to the dearth of lossless on movies - When I put on my marketing hat and think about what I'd choose for a commercial release if I were in charge of it, it occurs to me that most players and HT receivers currently on the market don't do a very good job of working with the new lossless audio formats, if they even handle them at all. If I'm the marketing guy trying to get mainstream acceptance of my product, why would I put something on the disc that only a handful of my customers can use, especially if it gets in the way of the bonus features J6P says he wants instead? If it costs any extra money to put on the disc, and only a handful of the buyers would ever utilize it, it isn't going on there. Period. Even if there's space and bandwidth galore.

When the hi-def formats fail in the mass market and become the niche products they are destined to be, I'm sure there will be more focus put on the audio tracks, because that's one of the things the niche market will want. Until then, as long as the big studios are putting out the bulk of the discs, we should expect to see the lowest common denominator on most discs, regardless of format - especially the anticipated big sellers.

Having said that, I'll be pleasantly surprised if either format ends up with a significant number of music video discs with 5.1 24/96 lossless for the foreseeable future. Nearly all of the ones on the market that do have lossless (regardless of format) seem to have 24/48 at best. It costs less.

 

24/48 audio, posted on October 20, 2007 at 10:37:19
Joe Murphy Jr
Audiophile

Posts: 4424
Joined: February 3, 2001
 It has nothing to do with cost: nearly all of today's motion pictures are mastered at 20/48 or 24/48. Until Hollywood moves to 24/96, which I really don't see them having an interest in, that's what you're going to get on High Definition releases. Of course, many older films were mastered at 16/48, so that's why numerous releases weren't 20 or 24-bit.

While some want Hollywood to kick it up a notch to 24/96, I don't believe movie soundtracks will benefit from such an upgrade. However, music videos, concerts, etc on the High Definition releases should always include the highest sample rate and bit depth that's available from the artist.

 

bandwidth falls short as well, posted on October 20, 2007 at 10:41:31
Joe Murphy Jr
Audiophile

Posts: 4424
Joined: February 3, 2001
 Paramount's recent statements about storage constraints and bandwidth issues really makes you wonder about their decision to put Blu-ray releases on hold.

 

"Its clear that Blu-Ray really doesn't have its act together" How is that clear?, posted on October 20, 2007 at 11:37:44
Jazz Inmate
Audiophile

Posts: 63589
Location: Bay Area, California
Joined: April 5, 2000
 I'm sorry you're not happy with your samsung and you're being biased by what you read on other websites, but that doesn't mean Blu-ray is a faulty format or that the BDA is not doing its job.

I just got my Spidey BD set for review and I'm about to start watching. If there are any problems I'll let you know but I'd wager that all three will play flawlessly. Here goes...
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"I have found that if you love life, life will love you back." -Arthur Rubinstein (1887-1982)

 

Be interesting to see what Paramount does when its 18 month "deal" with HD DVD is up, posted on October 20, 2007 at 11:46:22
Jazz Inmate
Audiophile

Posts: 63589
Location: Bay Area, California
Joined: April 5, 2000
 They've got about a year left to decide what to do.
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"I have found that if you love life, life will love you back." -Arthur Rubinstein (1887-1982)

 

When RCA introduced its vinyl LP..., posted on October 20, 2007 at 11:47:40
clarkjohnsen
Reviewer

Posts: 26843
Location: Massachusetts
Joined: May 5, 2000
 ...in 1932 (yes, fifteen years before Columbia), there were many problems. You can imagine! For one thing, you needed not only a new speed of rotation on your turntable, but also a new needle (and therefore cartridge). But there was more, and the early adaptors complained. "When will RCA start doing its research in its laboratories and not in its customers' wallets?" one unforgettably wrote.

Plus ca changes...

clark

 

everyone who knows the capacity of Blu-ray vs HD DVD, posted on October 20, 2007 at 11:57:16
Jazz Inmate
Audiophile

Posts: 63589
Location: Bay Area, California
Joined: April 5, 2000
 I get that you don't like Sony. You need to get over it.
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"I have found that if you love life, life will love you back." -Arthur Rubinstein (1887-1982)

 

You're wrong in every way, as usual (nt), posted on October 20, 2007 at 12:05:15
racerguy
 .

 

you're avoiding facts and trying to be insulting, as usual NT, posted on October 20, 2007 at 12:12:34
Jazz Inmate
Audiophile

Posts: 63589
Location: Bay Area, California
Joined: April 5, 2000
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"I have found that if you love life, life will love you back." -Arthur Rubinstein (1887-1982)

 

Wrong again, Jazz, posted on October 20, 2007 at 12:30:14
racerguy
 In this thread you posted your wrong-headed opinion as "fact," as you usually do. In this thread you started with the insults, by accusing me of "ignoring" your foolish opinion masquerading as a "fact." You even had the arrogance to assume that everyone else agrees with your ridiculous opinions, which further cements your reputation.

Just in case you hadn't figured it out already, I have no interest in attempting to engage in any sort of meaningful debate with you, because you aren't capable of distinguishing between your opinions and facts, and you seem to have absolutely no ability to reason logically. If you attempt to start an argument with me, you'll generally get nothing but brief, acerbic responses.

Oh - and since you have an obsessive need to get in the last word no matter what, please be my guest. Rant. Rave. Have a temper tantrum. Whatever it takes to satisfy your urges.

 

The PS3 caveat is interesting. In other words, in order to obtain a Blu-ray engine that works consistently well, ..., posted on October 20, 2007 at 12:39:47
Audiophilander
Audiophile

Posts: 30200
Location: Fort Worth (D/FW Metroplex)
Joined: March 31, 2000
 ...you're suggesting that videophiles should purchase a Playstation, right? Fair enough, but some folks might prefer A/V gear specifically designed for a more sophisticated, movie savvy audience. Can you recommend any Blu-ray gear that's priced competitively with HD-DVD gear and performs as well as your Playstation 3?

AuPh

 

Re:, posted on October 20, 2007 at 13:06:11
Jack G
Audiophile

Posts: 9741
Joined: September 24, 1999
 Hmm, the constant need for updates just to play a disc. The delay of and then still inability to deliver video profile 1.1 and 2.0. Disc incompatabilities with standalone players. The lack of finalized specs. The fact that the PS3 may end up being the only fully functional player...
Jack

 

You still beleive that myth? (nt), posted on October 20, 2007 at 13:08:26
Jack G
Audiophile

Posts: 9741
Joined: September 24, 1999
 .

 

Sony, Fox, and Disney have no issues putting lossless audio on their disks., posted on October 20, 2007 at 20:48:50
oscar
Audiophile

Posts: 19522
Location: Fort Worth, TX
Joined: October 25, 2000
 If anything uncompressed PCM saves them the royalty costs of TrueHD and DTS HD MA. And it certainly helps that 8 Mbps available for audio is a "freebie" which has no impact on the available video bitrate for Blu-ray disks (up to 40 mbps). In contrast, HD DVD has to live within 30 mbps which has to be allocated between audio and video. And the lower the allocated video bitrate, the more likely the studio has to put more TLC into the encoding; so guess what ? the studios will opt for a lossy audio track to save on the costs of encodes and maintain video bitrates to minimize compression artifacts. I point to the pitiful percentage of HD DVDs with lossless audio (<15%) as evidence.

The compressionists job becomes much easier when afforded the greater bandwidth/storage available to Blu-ray. I think the studios will eventually figure out this will save them money in the long run.

The sample size is still too small but I expect 24 bit lossless audio for music videos will be more prevalent for Blu-ray than for HD DVD. I also expect only Blu-ray will be able to support 5.1 24/96 for music videos with any kind of decent high def video (re: bandwidth/storage).

 

that doesn't make sense, posted on October 20, 2007 at 21:28:35
Joe Murphy Jr
Audiophile

Posts: 4424
Joined: February 3, 2001
 "...some folks might prefer A/V gear specifically designed for a more sophisticated, movie savvy audience."

Maybe something with more snob appeal?

The audio and video capabilities of the PS3 put it on par with or better than most of what's out there re: performance. The insulting "it's a game machine" mentality (despite the fact that it's so much more) and the look of the product doesn't negate those capabilities.

 

Early adoption isn't usually driven by cost, posted on October 21, 2007 at 00:33:14
Jazz Inmate
Audiophile

Posts: 63589
Location: Bay Area, California
Joined: April 5, 2000
 Auph, those who are looking for cheapo players and software are looking at mature technology: DVD. They can spend under $100 on a player and get thousands of titles for about $10 a pop.
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"I have found that if you love life, life will love you back." -Arthur Rubinstein (1887-1982)

 

what myth? NT, posted on October 21, 2007 at 00:34:33
Jazz Inmate
Audiophile

Posts: 63589
Location: Bay Area, California
Joined: April 5, 2000
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"I have found that if you love life, life will love you back." -Arthur Rubinstein (1887-1982)

 

It's not an opinion that blu-ray has a higher capacity. It's a fact. Learn the difference NT, posted on October 21, 2007 at 00:36:03
Jazz Inmate
Audiophile

Posts: 63589
Location: Bay Area, California
Joined: April 5, 2000
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"I have found that if you love life, life will love you back." -Arthur Rubinstein (1887-1982)

 

Sorry Joe, but I beg to differ., posted on October 21, 2007 at 00:42:43
Audiophilander
Audiophile

Posts: 30200
Location: Fort Worth (D/FW Metroplex)
Joined: March 31, 2000

The "look" of products has always been a factor in their appeal. I'm not saying that performance issues are less important, to the contrary, performance is essential for cutting edge products; it should be #1, that's a given. However, eye appeal, rack-friendly construction and intended function are also factors worthy of consideration when purchasing a product.

Maybe "snob appeal" is what you'd call it, but audiophiles frequently take into account the all important WAF consideration in purchasing audio gear, most often to the detriment of monolithic room enveloping speakers that exude testosterone like a muscle-car. This was a long lamented problem until savvy manufacturers started designing more eye catching, home friendly speakers that still achieved high performance design parameters without losing spousal appeal.

The problem with acquiring an over-designed game console as one's high-end video platform is that it lacks the proper elegance to fit in with other components in a top-notch A/V system. Admittedly the PS3 is much less clunky in appearance than some noteworthy game cubes and consoles, but it's still a Playstation, even to the point of being labeled as such across the top.

Why is it that the best affordable Blu-ray product SONY can design to display films with optimum resolution has to be a game platform that the owner can't show off to interested friends without excusing it's odd appearance? It's like the Wizard behind the curtain: having seen the PS3 for what it is will folks still be as overwhelmed by the end result or will concerns arise that it may just be a humbug pretending to be a magician?

Food for thought.

AuPh (Have Snob, Will Snoot)

 

Costs are a factor to adopting any format anytime., posted on October 21, 2007 at 00:59:36
Audiophilander
Audiophile

Posts: 30200
Location: Fort Worth (D/FW Metroplex)
Joined: March 31, 2000
 Folks who buy either Blu-ray or HD-DVD products (hardware & software) do have a right to expect levels of performance in most areas that exceed standard definition DVD; that has nothing to do with early adoption.

Basically, early adopters are paying more for newer higher resolution technology; with that comes certain reasonable expectations that coincide with the marketing of those products.

>>> "Auph, those who are looking for cheapo players and software are looking at mature technology: DVD. They can spend under $100 on a player and get thousands of titles for about $10 a pop." <<<

True, but those who want performance can also obtain it with high-end players that scale to 1080P. While not true HD, some of these come pretty darn close, meaning that the expectations for performance of Blu-ray and HD-DVD are raised even higher.

AuPh

 

This is 2007. most gear is built to get software/firmware updates, posted on October 21, 2007 at 01:24:41
Jazz Inmate
Audiophile

Posts: 63589
Location: Bay Area, California
Joined: April 5, 2000
 Most new gear has a jack for hooking it up to a network so it stays current. The new plasmas from Pioneer have this feature as well. Updating software and firmware has become standard practice. I admit, when I got my Tivo, the importance of a network connection was totally new to me. I didn't like the idea, but the Tivo needed to regularly download schedule information and get the latest software updates. When I got my Harmony learning remote, the updates seemed like a real pain until I realized this is how it's done nowadays. Gear requires constant software and firmware update. This isn't unique to Blu-ray gear. Computers, Tivos/DVRs, remote controls, display devices, receivers, etc, etc....all need to be hooked up to the network if not all the time then once in a while.

The reason you think the PS3 is the only blu-ray player to not require updates is because it IS hooked up to the network and IS frequently being updated. That's just the way electronics manufacturers make their products nowadays. It has less to do with blu-ray than with the direction of the overall consumer electronics industry. I didn't like it either, at first. But if you set up a network and hook up all your gear, it's fairly easy.
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"I have found that if you love life, life will love you back." -Arthur Rubinstein (1887-1982)

 

So is value, posted on October 21, 2007 at 01:32:49
Jazz Inmate
Audiophile

Posts: 63589
Location: Bay Area, California
Joined: April 5, 2000
 With the PS3 you don't just get a Blu-ray/DVD player. You get a 60 GB blu-ray hard drive, compatibility with PS games, four USB ports, Blue tooth, a cell processor that is so powerful Stanford scientists are using it for protein folding renderings, and a built-in media center.

That's a tremendous value. Even for the 40 gig model at $399.

And I would say that early adopters are not just paying more for the technology, but for the companies to recoup their R&D expenses in getting these products to market.
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"I have found that if you love life, life will love you back." -Arthur Rubinstein (1887-1982)

 

Except... how many Grandmas and Grandpas are expecting to update the firmware on their CE electronics..., posted on October 21, 2007 at 05:53:51
oscar
Audiophile

Posts: 19522
Location: Fort Worth, TX
Joined: October 25, 2000
 ...every few months ? It's hard enough for this flat-earther to figure out how to burn a .iso image to disc, let alone having to download the disc off a flaky internet site. And even if the CE manufacturer mails you a disc, a power glitch in the middle of your firmware update will turn your player into a doorstop.

I also have to agree with the notion the PS3 is a game console whose shape screams "game console". Not very aesthetically pleasing for the snobbish equipment rack.

While it's Blu-ray playback was SOTA at the time (might still be for all I know), it didn't support 5.1 analog outputs. Without an HDMI-capable component, 5.1 analog output is my only access to lossless audio.

 

Some is, some is not., posted on October 21, 2007 at 07:40:43
Jack G
Audiophile

Posts: 9741
Joined: September 24, 1999
 Not everyone wants to do update on a regular basis. I don't, and stopped updating my A1 a long time ago. My SXRD doesn't require any updates, and its as good or better than most plasmas out there. My Universal remote, a MX-500 doesn't do online updates either. Just because you choose gear that requires updating online, doen't mean everyone will, or want to.
Yes, I am aware that the PS3 gets updated regulaly.
For me, online updates require that I disconnect my computer, and hook up a 25' cable from my modem to my player(s). I'm lucky they are on the same floor of my house. I suspect I'm not the only one, and many won't or can't do it.
the masses will not tolerate this.

True story:
I went to Best Buy yesterday to pick up a Sharp BD player. On my way in, there was a guy ahead of me returning a Sony S300. I thought it was an amusing coincedence, but didn't think too much of it really. Walking around the store, I noticed that they had 3 open box S300s, as well as a couple regular ones. THAT was not a coincedence. Why do you think people are returning them? I can see one being defective, but not four. I'll bet what happened, is that they needed an update, and wouldn't play a disc the owner bought and expected to watch. A brand new $500 player won't play the newest movies? Take it back!
This kind of thing is OK for first generation gear, but we are at the second or third generation now.
Jack

 

Not everyone wants a game console in their living room or HT, posted on October 21, 2007 at 07:47:04
Jack G
Audiophile

Posts: 9741
Joined: September 24, 1999
 Regardless of its capabilities, its still a game console. That's why its clled a Play Station. That's why the masses aren't buying it. That and the price. :-)
Jack

 

That they have an 18 month contract (nt), posted on October 21, 2007 at 07:48:58
Jack G
Audiophile

Posts: 9741
Joined: September 24, 1999
 .

 

RE: Some is, some is not., posted on October 21, 2007 at 08:47:23
racerguy
 >>Walking around the store, I noticed that they had 3 open box S300s, as well as a couple regular ones. <<

I posted last week that an appliance store chain in my region was doing a one-day below-cost blowout sale on the Sony S300. Turned out that most of the samples in the store near me were "open box." They only had one that was still factory-sealed.

 

PS/3 simply wasn't a great choice of reference platforms for B-D, posted on October 21, 2007 at 08:52:42
4season
 Playstation 3 has far more computing horsepower than any "average" B-D player, and any Blu-Ray features designed to use this power are likely to run sluggishly or not at all on non-PS/3 systems.

 

These are the same studios..., posted on October 21, 2007 at 09:17:28
racerguy
 ...that, when they had the opportunity to put better-quality audio and video on DVDs, frequently chose not to, or charged extra for what they should have done in the first place (i.e. Superbit). Instead, they went with the least-common denominator.

They didn't maximize their utilization of DVD capabilities, because they didn't have to. What makes you think they'll consistently utilize the capabilities of Blu-ray (or even HD DVD)? Again, history shows a clear precedent.

Contrary to the desperate nonsense spouted about me by the resident forum buffoon, I've never denied that Blu-ray has more impressive technical specs, and I agree that the BDA's slideware is way more spectacular than the HD DVD consortium's. Unfortunately, the reality (i.e. the actual products) don't quite match up to the hype yet.




 

RE: Some is, some is not., posted on October 21, 2007 at 10:00:30
Jazz Inmate
Audiophile

Posts: 63589
Location: Bay Area, California
Joined: April 5, 2000
 I know it's a pain. That's why eventually you will want to install a router and have your computer and all electronics hooked up to your network. It sounds complicated but it's pretty easy and cheap. But I agree with you. It's not intuitive and there is a disconnect in the way these young engineers are designing their products compared to the way older generations think of consumer electronics.

The downloadable music industry sprouted up overnight and destroyed the record labels in much the same way. Ten years ago, my brother who is nine years younger than me said matter-of-factly that everyone will soon be downloading their music online. I didn't believe him, and I still don't get my music that way, but he was right in terms of the general public. Times are changing.

Regarding your observations about the BD players, I think it's amazing that anyone is even buying those machines. Yes, there are a lot of returns, I'm sure. You have to really understand home theater just to set up and operate all this gear nowadays, and the fact that HDMI is in a state of flux is going to cause some real issues with some people. You don't know for sure that Blu-ray is reason for those returns. Even the connector issues are confusing for people. We had component, then DVI and now HDMI. What is for sure is that there is much misinformation and confusion.

If many BD players are being returned, that means Blu-ray has generated a great deal of interest among consumers and that many BD players are being sold. It's still early in the game and I think rollout is going pretty smoothly, considering all the issues.
-------------

"I have found that if you love life, life will love you back." -Arthur Rubinstein (1887-1982)

 

and you know it's a myth how? Because some doods at AVS told you?, posted on October 21, 2007 at 10:16:54
Jazz Inmate
Audiophile

Posts: 63589
Location: Bay Area, California
Joined: April 5, 2000
 From the New York Times, published August 21, 2007:

"Paramount’s agreement to use only HD DVD is limited to only 18 months."
-------------

"I have found that if you love life, life will love you back." -Arthur Rubinstein (1887-1982)

 

But that doesn't mean a better picture, posted on October 21, 2007 at 10:28:00
Jack G
Audiophile

Posts: 9741
Joined: September 24, 1999
 Most BDs(56%) are on BD-25s, and most that are on BD-50s don't fill up the disc. The bigger = better only applies to MPEG2, that requires lots of storage space. Both AVC and RC-1 hold the same info in less space(they look better too).
Jack

 

not a quote, no named source, posted on October 21, 2007 at 10:40:53
Jack G
Audiophile

Posts: 9741
Joined: September 24, 1999
 For All I know, that could be from the same people who claimed Universal was going neutral, and Wienstein. Or are these the people you claimed said M$ wrote them a $150M check?
I wouldn't be surprised if the source was from the BDA, or a fanboy.
Jack

 

RE: Some is, some is not., posted on October 21, 2007 at 10:55:55
Jack G
Audiophile

Posts: 9741
Joined: September 24, 1999
 That's not good. When I realised, I looked around, and noticed that there were NO open box Samsung 1400 (doesn't need an update), and NO open box HD DVD players.
Jack

 

The source is Brooks Barnes of the New York Times, who talked to two Viacom execs close to the deal NT, posted on October 21, 2007 at 11:06:37
Jazz Inmate
Audiophile

Posts: 63589
Location: Bay Area, California
Joined: April 5, 2000
-------------

"I have found that if you love life, life will love you back." -Arthur Rubinstein (1887-1982)

 

So far it's only meant better sound on Blu-ray discs with uncompressed PCM, posted on October 21, 2007 at 11:09:56
Jazz Inmate
Audiophile

Posts: 63589
Location: Bay Area, California
Joined: April 5, 2000
 How many HD DVDs do you have with lossless PCM?

Remember audio quality? It's a minor feature that inspired this entire website and brought us all here.

And yes, video quality is impacted too. Many BDs have MPEG-4...how many HD-DVDs have that vs MPEG-2?

Face it: capacity is a very critical issue in delivering high definition A/V content. I can't believe we are still having this argument.
-------------

"I have found that if you love life, life will love you back." -Arthur Rubinstein (1887-1982)

 

And speaking of HD-DVD..., posted on October 21, 2007 at 11:18:36
Jazz Inmate
Audiophile

Posts: 63589
Location: Bay Area, California
Joined: April 5, 2000
 Yet another "problem release" in the vein of what we have been talking about. And this is Transformers, perhaps the biggest HD DVD exclusive release yet. I don't care about Transformers or these interactive features, but you've been bashing blu-ray for exactly this kind of thing. Will you bash the HD DVD? Fair is fair, but are you capable of being fair?

Seems like it's an Ethernet "Network interaction" that Dreamworks was hoping to exploit on HD-DVD...and it crashed the disc. Not very consumer friendly, eh?
-------------

"I have found that if you love life, life will love you back." -Arthur Rubinstein (1887-1982)

 

RE: Some is, some is not., posted on October 21, 2007 at 11:19:06
racerguy
 I asked the salesguy at the store if the sole factory-sealed box was the only sealed one they had, and he told me, "No, we have a whole warehouse full of new ones."

Between that comment and the fact that they were blowing them out at below cost says to me that the players, or at least this particular model, aren't selling well.

OTOH, flat-panel TVs and $100 upconverting DVD players appeared to be flying off the shelves.

 

It's truly sad that the only way you can support your feeble arguments is by setting up a strawman (nt), posted on October 21, 2007 at 11:43:05
racerguy
 .

 

My entire argument that blu-ray is the way to go is about capacity...there's no other point to set up, posted on October 21, 2007 at 12:15:31
Jazz Inmate
Audiophile

Posts: 63589
Location: Bay Area, California
Joined: April 5, 2000
 It's really odd how you've missed that.
-------------

"I have found that if you love life, life will love you back." -Arthur Rubinstein (1887-1982)

 

RE: And speaking of HD-DVD..., posted on October 21, 2007 at 12:18:54
Jack G
Audiophile

Posts: 9741
Joined: September 24, 1999
 Yea, I heard there were a few problems.
Regardless, HD DVD is FAR more consumer freindly than Blu-Ray.
Jack

 

Unnamed disgruntled employees. whoopee. (nt), posted on October 21, 2007 at 12:21:00
Jack G
Audiophile

Posts: 9741
Joined: September 24, 1999
 .

 

RE: So far it's only meant better sound on Blu-ray discs with uncompressed PCM, posted on October 21, 2007 at 12:33:53
Jack G
Audiophile

Posts: 9741
Joined: September 24, 1999
 >>>How many HD DVDs do you have with lossless PCM?<<<
None. How many BDs have interactive features.

>>>Remember audio quality?<<<
Yes, I have an entire floor of my house, seperate from my video, dedicated to it.

>>>It's a minor feature that inspired this entire website and brought us all here.<<<
Yes, it IS a minor feature in VIDEO.

>>>And yes, video quality is impacted too. Many BDs have MPEG-4...how many HD-DVDs have that vs MPEG-2?<<<
MPEG4 is AVC. You did know that didn't you?
BD has 105 AVC Vs 153 MPEG2. HD DVD has 30 AVC Vs. 10 MPEG2.
Intersting stats eh?

>>>Face it: capacity is a very critical issue in delivering high definition A/V content. I can't believe we are still having this argument.<<<
That's because you still don't get it.
You need to get away from Blu-ray.com for a while-it tend to give you a warped view of reality.
Jack

 

Executives aren't usually disgruntled, except maybe your hero Amir Majidimehr NT, posted on October 21, 2007 at 12:56:47
Jazz Inmate
Audiophile

Posts: 63589
Location: Bay Area, California
Joined: April 5, 2000
-------------

"I have found that if you love life, life will love you back." -Arthur Rubinstein (1887-1982)

 

How do you know HD DVD is far more consumer friendly?, posted on October 21, 2007 at 13:03:00
Jazz Inmate
Audiophile

Posts: 63589
Location: Bay Area, California
Joined: April 5, 2000
 Have you conducted a poll? Just because your personal experience and the HD DUD skuad over at AVS refuses to acknowledge any positives for Blu-ray or any negatives for HD DVD--that doesn't make it so. Since you're focusing on your own observations, I'll repeat my own experience with Blu-ray...not one glitch so far. Do you think that's unusual? Based on what evidence? Until you can provide some, you might want to back off of these sweeping generalizations in which you totally ignore HD DVD problems and spotlight the supposed problems with blu-ray.
-------------

"I have found that if you love life, life will love you back." -Arthur Rubinstein (1887-1982)

 

*rolling eyes*, posted on October 21, 2007 at 13:21:54
Jack G
Audiophile

Posts: 9741
Joined: September 24, 1999
 No, I'm not surprised the PS3 has had no problems. that's part of the problem. I am well aware of the plusses and minuses of the two formats. After all, unlike you, I own both. BTW, if I had such hatred towards Blu-ray, why did I just buy another player yesterday? As I've said previously, I support both formats, but I do not like the way the BDA does things.
Jack

 

RE: So far it's only meant better sound on Blu-ray discs with uncompressed PCM, posted on October 21, 2007 at 13:59:58
Jazz Inmate
Audiophile

Posts: 63589
Location: Bay Area, California
Joined: April 5, 2000
 Before you become too enamored with the MPEG codecs on HD DVD, you may want to take a close look at the bitrates. They're not all created equal.

You obviously care about audio quality but downplay its importance in HT.

If you really want an immersive, interactive HD experience, you should get into gaming, but there again PS3 is the way to go. My idea of fun is not interacting with movie features...that's not why I buy hi res movies.
-------------

"I have found that if you love life, life will love you back." -Arthur Rubinstein (1887-1982)

 

??????, posted on October 21, 2007 at 14:17:50
Jack G
Audiophile

Posts: 9741
Joined: September 24, 1999
 The vast majority of titles on HD DVD are encoded with VC-1. It doesn't require as much space or as high bitrate as MPEG2. Same with AVC. That's the whole point.
Jack

 

"Unfortunately, the reality (i.e. the actual products) don't quite match up to the hype yet.", posted on October 21, 2007 at 14:43:37
oscar
Audiophile

Posts: 19522
Location: Fort Worth, TX
Joined: October 25, 2000
 That statement applies more for HD DVD then it does for Blu-Ray. Blu-Ray is delivering on PQ/SQ. HD DVD is NOT delivering on the lossless audio for the most part. What's more, lossless audio is a freebie, I don't expect Sony, Disney or Fox to stop delivering stellar PQ/SQ because the format makes it easy to do it. And just as easy than Universal and Warner's indifferent non-efforts to put lossy audio and indifferent video encodes on HD DVD releases.

 

Give it up, Jack, posted on October 21, 2007 at 14:55:24
racerguy
 It's like arguing with a six-year-old.

>>BTW, if I had such hatred towards Blu-ray, why did I just buy another player yesterday?<<

I'm sure you did it just to annoy Jazz! ;-)

 

Well, I think we've reached a bit of an impasse..., posted on October 21, 2007 at 15:08:45
racerguy
 >>That statement applies more for HD DVD then it does for Blu-Ray.<<

...and this is it. As I've said previously, it's clear to me that HD DVD is much more "baked" than Blu-ray. I don't believe that HD DVD delivers as much as Blu-ray is potentially capable of delivering, but HD DVD works quite well and has fewer issues. That makes it a better consumer format, for now.

>>Blu-Ray is delivering on PQ/SQ. HD DVD is NOT delivering on the lossless audio for the most part.<<

Yes, there are fewer releases on HD DVD with lossless audio tracks, and that may always be the case, given the space and bandwidth constraints relative to Blu-ray. The thing is, I don't listen to or watch specifications - I'm interested in the movie experience. Overall I have not been disappointed with PQ or SQ on HD DVD, and for the most part, neither has anyone else who's tried it.

Yes, HD DVD has a list of negatives, but so does Blu-ray. Again, I'll state that neither is "better," and impressive spec sheets and promises of future greatness won't change that.

Eventually the dust will settle, and one or the other will end up as the niche format of choice. At that point, will any of our posturing really matter? :-)

 

just a few comments, posted on October 21, 2007 at 15:35:05
Joe Murphy Jr
Audiophile

Posts: 4424
Joined: February 3, 2001
 I guess the secret's out that I don't buy audio or video gear based on looks (my CD transport is a Krell KPS-20t) nor on what I believe my relatives or friends will say/think about it (my digital video source is the PS3). It's my gear, I paid for it and I'm the one who uses it. Anyone who has a problem with that can exit through the door in which they came in from.

WAF
My wife thinks the PS3 is cool looking. As a matter of fact, she's the one who bought it for me. And since she's 36, it's not one of those twenty-something things going on here.

Sony
As you should know, game consoles are sold at a loss: the money's made through software purchases and other items to go along with the console and gaming experience.

Sony is made up of several different "smaller Sonys" that do not have to support each other. Remember all of the commotion that was made over Sony's DSD/SACD division not getting SACD releases from Sony's own label, Sony Music? Same applies here: SCEA does their own thing (games, consoles, etc), Sony Pictures does their own thing (theatrical releases, home movies, etc) and Sony Electronics does theirs (receivers, DVD/Blu-ray players, etc). Through SCEA, the PS3 got its price via the usual console pricing route -- discount and make up the money elsewhere. But Sony Electronics doesn't do subsidies, so no discounting of the hardware occurred as in the gaming market.

Re: Blu-ray hardware, prices will come down (more than they have already) and capabilities/features will be increasingly supported. The next few months will be interesting.

"The problem with acquiring an over-designed game console as one's high-end video platform is that it lacks the proper elegance to fit in with other components in a top-notch A/V system."
I hate to tell you this, but if the PS3 internals were put in a stand-alone player, A/V snobs still wouldn't be satisfied unless it lost the ability to play games and had a different name. But if you really wanted a player to "fit in with other components in a top-notch A/V system", you'd be looking at Denon's upcoming DVD-3800BDCI Blu-ray player, not demanding a stand-alone Blu-ray player with the PS3's capabilities for $250 + free shipping.

 

well... there you go again, posted on October 21, 2007 at 15:50:24
Joe Murphy Jr
Audiophile

Posts: 4424
Joined: February 3, 2001
 Regardless of its capabilities, its still a game console.

All I can say is that it's also a game console. No, wait, it's actually a media hub.

That's why the masses aren't buying it.

Masses? You wanna talk 'bout masses? The PS3 has amassed more sales than all Blu-ray and HD DVD players combined. How ya lika dem masses?!

That and the price. :-)

News flash: $399 PS3s are coming in a week or two.

 

knowing what you know, posted on October 21, 2007 at 15:52:53
Joe Murphy Jr
Audiophile

Posts: 4424
Joined: February 3, 2001
 what player did you buy?

 

RE: *rolling eyes*, posted on October 21, 2007 at 19:04:24
Jazz Inmate
Audiophile

Posts: 63589
Location: Bay Area, California
Joined: April 5, 2000
 Yeah, I know that you say you are trying to give both formats a fair shot, but the fact is that you constantly rail on Blu-ray and you cannot say a bad word about HD DVD. That holds true even when HD DVD discs are shown to have problems and the format is known to have a lower capacity that manifests itself as an inability to include uncompressed PCM. In other words, you say you care about quality, but it's just not manifest in your take on the two formats.

I mean, your trip to the store to get a new BD player resulted in more ammunition for you to bash blu-ray. So no, it doesn't seem that you are interested in giving BD a fair shot. I wouldn't touch samsung with a 10 foot pole...that goes for their disc players, their display devices, etc.
-------------

"I have found that if you love life, life will love you back." -Arthur Rubinstein (1887-1982)

 

Good post. I completely agree with you both. nt, posted on October 21, 2007 at 19:35:51
Duilawyer
Audiophile

Posts: 29475
Joined: November 5, 2001
 .

 

you confuse (intentionally) the ability to upgrade with the inability of the player to play., posted on October 21, 2007 at 19:44:44
Duilawyer
Audiophile

Posts: 29475
Joined: November 5, 2001
 Why I would try to reason with a pitchman for Blewit Ray is beyond me. The upgrades should precede the discs coming out far enough in advance so no reviewer (!!!) or buyer gets a "Won't play" error message.

But you knew that. Pitch away.

 

You=correct., posted on October 21, 2007 at 19:46:46
Duilawyer
Audiophile

Posts: 29475
Joined: November 5, 2001
 Jazz Inmate=bailing water. Explaining away a product obviously not ready for prime time.

 

You do know what bitrate is, right? NT, posted on October 21, 2007 at 20:04:05
Jazz Inmate
Audiophile

Posts: 63589
Location: Bay Area, California
Joined: April 5, 2000
-------------

"I have found that if you love life, life will love you back." -Arthur Rubinstein (1887-1982)

 

RE: *rolling eyes*, posted on October 21, 2007 at 23:01:18
racerguy
 >>Yeah, I know that you say you are trying to give both formats a fair shot, but the fact is that you constantly rail on Blu-ray and you cannot say a bad word about HD DVD. That holds true even when HD DVD discs are shown to have problems and the format is known to have a lower capacity that manifests itself as an inability to include uncompressed PCM. In other words, you say you care about quality, but it's just not manifest in your take on the two formats.

I mean, your trip to the store to get a new BD player resulted in more ammunition for you to bash blu-ray. So no, it doesn't seem that you are interested in giving BD a fair shot. I wouldn't touch samsung with a 10 foot pole...that goes for their disc players, their display devices, etc.<<

I'm preserving Jazz' post for posterity, just in case he thinks about deleting it, or realizes that he's again gone too far and decides to edit out the loony paranoid bits. :-)

 

Fine; maybe I'll take a look at the Denon, ..., posted on October 21, 2007 at 23:45:24
Audiophilander
Audiophile

Posts: 30200
Location: Fort Worth (D/FW Metroplex)
Joined: March 31, 2000
 ...if you're right about it being in the $250 range, but nothing you've said has dispelled my concerns about SONY or the technologies they support.

FYI, I've been burned by SONY products and heavily hyped technologies before, or rather their slow support and out and out lack of support (fast roll-out & quick obsolescence) for products they hype. I'm sure that this isn't true across the board, but you have to understand that not everyone is going to line-up behind a manufacturer or that manufacturer's new technology just because of the hype associated with it.

The amount of extra space available on a given high resolution disc doesn't impress me, especially if the mastering results in virtually the same quality image on both competing formats and that hyped space isn't utilized for extras or a noticeably better picture from the increased bandwidth.

The bottom line for me rests in several areas: 1) movies & videos that I desire to collect in high definition, 2) glitch free performance and 3) competitive pricing of hardware and software.

The early adopter arguments don't impress me either. If something is being marketed to achieve a certain level of performance, then I expect the product(s) to live up to the advertising with very few roadblocks. If a product doesn't live up to expectations, then IMO it isn't ready for commercial sale to the general public.

>>> "My wife thinks the PS3 is cool looking. As a matter of fact, she's the one who bought it for me. And since she's 36, it's not one of those twenty-something things going on here." <<<

That's fine! Some folks like abstract art, too; it's all a matter of personal taste. I didn't mean to imply that you or anyone else who purchases a SONY Play Station is immature or anything like that. What I meant in bringing up the WAF issue is that spousal considerations are a factor for many folks (based on the number of discussions on AA's boards) even if it isn't an issue for you and your wife.

>>> "Re: Blu-ray hardware, prices will come down (more than they have already) and capabilities/features will be increasingly supported." <<<

They'd better, or Bill Gates is gonna kick some serious fanny! I wouldn't be surprised if HD-DVD prices fall to match anything SONY announces. I don't know how deep SONY's pockets are, but I'd never bet against Microsoft coming from behind to win by a (held) nose even though I don't like Microsoft's cutthroat business model. The bottom line: If Blu-ray is going to "blow up folk's skirts" then they're going to have to offer much more in the way of major films that folks want as well as genre films and classics, and those films will have to play without glitches.

So far, HD-DVD is doing a better job of supplying the movies I want and my Toshiba HD-A20 player has worked very well (without hiccups), but if Blu-ray were to issue certain highly desired (single inventory) titles it would probably persuade me into taking a closer look at buying a Blu-ray or dual format player sooner than planned. As I've stated several times before, I have no dog in this hunt.

>>> "The next few months will be interesting." <<<

On that we can definitely agree! :o)

AuPh

 

The Sharp, posted on October 22, 2007 at 04:38:18
Jack G
Audiophile

Posts: 9741
Joined: September 24, 1999
 I hear there may be issues with the seamless branching with Spiderman 2, but I don't intend to get any of those movies anyway. My preliminary testing has shown its played everything I've thrown at it (so far) without a glitch, and has a very good picture. Time will tell, I have 30 days.
Jack

PS. I decided not to wait for the Denon. It will be $2K, a little less for the lesser model, and that's just too much to spend on my tertiary format.

 

Actually, I said ALOT of bad words about HD DVD last winter, posted on October 22, 2007 at 04:59:00
Jack G
Audiophile

Posts: 9741
Joined: September 24, 1999
 They had no players on the shelves for Black Friday-second gen was delayed so they barely got any out for Xmas. I BLASTED them for not putting out many titles December through March. Dumbest thing I'ld seen in ages. I caught alot of flack for that too.

>>>That holds true even when HD DVD discs are shown to have problems and the format is known to have a lower capacity that manifests itself as an inability to include uncompressed PCM.<<<
I haven't had many problems with HD DVD-2 discs had glitches out of 75. That's not bad, its not perfect either. As I've frequently said, I like uncompressed PCM, but its low on my priority list. My priorities go like this-1) content, 2) PQ, 3) features, 4) AQ.

>>>In other words, you say you care about quality, but it's just not manifest in your take on the two formats.<<<
No, its just that my priorities are different than yours-I don't know why you cannot accept that.

>>>I mean, your trip to the store to get a new BD player resulted in more ammunition for you to bash blu-ray. <<<
That's certainly not my fault, I didn't go there looking for problems, it just kind of hit me in the face.
BTW, I've had no problems with my Sharp player so far.

Jack

 

Yes I do, posted on October 22, 2007 at 06:58:59
Jack G
Audiophile

Posts: 9741
Joined: September 24, 1999
 Its sold what 3-4M? Thats alot for a game console its first year? Please...
You're really stretching things here.
Jack

 

"BTW, I've had no problems with my Sharp player so far" That's great news, posted on October 22, 2007 at 10:06:27
Jazz Inmate
Audiophile

Posts: 63589
Location: Bay Area, California
Joined: April 5, 2000
 If you continue to have good experience with it, maybe you'll reevaluate your take on BD.
-------------

"I have found that if you love life, life will love you back." -Arthur Rubinstein (1887-1982)

 

But the player does play BDs. It's only the recent Fox titles that require the firmware update, posted on October 22, 2007 at 12:27:44
Jazz Inmate
Audiophile

Posts: 63589
Location: Bay Area, California
Joined: April 5, 2000
 You need to learn the issues before you inject yourself into a conversation.
-------------

"I have found that if you love life, life will love you back." -Arthur Rubinstein (1887-1982)

 

could be a firmware issue, posted on October 22, 2007 at 22:09:52
Joe Murphy Jr
Audiophile

Posts: 4424
Joined: February 3, 2001
 Since there are so few seamless branching Blu-ray discs on the market, Sharp may not have had enough evaluation material. Perhaps they can investigate why their player is being tripped up with that disc and design a fix to be implemented in a firmware update.

 

Not particularly relevant to me, and upscaled DVD can be be very nice., posted on October 23, 2007 at 12:01:46
jsm
Audiophile

Posts: 1887
Location: SF Bay Area
Joined: October 28, 2000
 I did later buy an S-VHS machine because I wanted the higher resolution to go along with my camcorder, but I never needed it to play any pre-recorded material. I also later got a hi-fi machine, though I never was that impressed with the "hi-fi" on VHS. I had much better ways to get hi-fi. But these were added capabilities. Things can evolve, but be backward compatible. BD appeards to evolving without backward compatability. My first digital camera, a Nikon Coolpix 950, only had 2 mp. I now have one with 10 mp. But my 950 still works and takes images as good as they were when it was new. There were firmware updates for it. They were optional though. The camera worked fine without them.

I did not care much for "Lost in Translation." and can't imagine that watching it in HD would make me like it any more. The same goes for "Being John Malkovich." The movies that I would like to own on HD don't exist on HD. Not one of them, at least among the several hundred titles that I looked at the last time. Anime has zero interest for me.

The previous comments really are only applicable to me. But more generally, I have been very extremely impressed by how good upscaled DVDs look as played by my Oppo DVD player on my Panasonic 58-inch plasma set. They can be as good as many of the "HD" programs that come over Dishnetwork, but of course not as good as really good HD progarmming. I just don't feel like I am missing much fun, that the picture qulity that I am seeing on DVDs is depriving me of some real enjoyment. In fact, Dishnetwork has run a number of my favorite movies in HD that I have stored on my hard drive, and these are not available on pre-recorded media. I do look forward to someday having an HD player for rental movies mainly, but I feel no urgency as I did with a CD or DVD player. I was one of the very early subscribers to Netflix, and I do regularly scan their HD titles, but so far I find little of ineterest. But each to his own, of course. I admit to being far from the norm in my view that the number of movies that I really like being made per year seems to have been dropping steadily for many years. I'm down to less than ten, maybe less than five if I'm being really critical.

Joe

 

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