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He reminds me of Madonna, a great potential talent wasted through sophomoric egoism, a delusion of graduer worthy of Musso.
Follow Ups:
So I looked him up.
-4th of July - OK
-JFK - Quite good from what I recall (many years ago I saw this)
-The Poeple Vs. Larry Flynt - OK, between the two above IMO
-Platoon - Liked it at the time, I'd place this behind JFK from memory
-Natural Born Killers - Waste of 2 hours I'll never get back
The only I've seen of his listed producer titles on IMDB.
by Nicholas Cage rather than the director?
4th of July - OK - actually it's pretty good, probably the most honest work by Stone.
-JFK - Quite good from what I recall (many years ago I saw this) - I am a history buff, and I don't like too many liberties taken by the directors.
-The Poeple Vs. Larry Flynt - OK, between the two above IMO - exactly my sentiment
-Platoon - Liked it at the time, I'd place this behind JFK from memor-
Natural Born Killers - Waste of 2 hours I'll never get back - Again, exactly my sentiment
Scholars for Truth founder James Fetzer has a remarkable command of the JFK issue. He recommends a couple books on the subject.
JFK and the Unpeakable (2008) Covers why it matters (we haven't had an independent president since. Bush, Obama and the rest go with the military industrial complex, or they know they will be taken out.)
Murder in Dealey Plaza (2003)
As far as Stone goes, I enjoyed Wall St and some of his others. I feel he would have realized more of his potential without the drugs.
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Stone has a strong, compelling visual style and great personal conviction, and he's gotten some fabulous performances from his actors. But sometimes he's just too belabored and over the top. A failure of proportion, not conviction. I would certainly rate his talent as being of a higher order than Madonna's.
Salvadore is probably my favorite. I also have a fondness for Wall Street. Natural Born Killers is brilliant, but repellent.
I never saw Alexander through to the end and I don't much like Born On The Fourth of July, The Doors or Wallstreet Never Sleeps. The presidential trilogy, W, Nixon and Jfk are entretaining - not necessarily accurate, but fun to watch.
"Stone has a strong, compelling visual style and great personal conviction, and he's gotten some fabulous performances from his actors."
I agree.
"But sometimes he's just too belabored and over the top."
A shining example of that would be that football movie with Jaimee Fox, with that scene with all those big screen TVs showing the chariot scene from 'Ben-Hur' in that big room.
"I would certainly rate his talent as being of a higher order than Madonna's."
At least, she's honest about her weirdness.
But I did like 'the 4th of July'.
***I would certainly rate his talent as being of a higher order than Madonna's.
I have two or three Madonna's songs on my iPod, but I have no Stone films in my library.
he wrote the screenplay from the Hayes book but did not direct. He certainly can go over the top but I'd rather watch his movies than 9/10 other movies out there. Most movies are real shit.
ET
He is too heavy handed with insinuating his politics into his films.
I don't mind that someone does it, but he does to an extent that I find takes away from the films.
I dion't think I've actually enjoyed any of his films.
Natural Born Killers made fine use of The Cowboy Junkies' cover of "Sweet Jane." It also created a mood that as I left the theater, I would not have been surprised to see similar mayhem taking place out in the neighborhood - the movie wrapped itself into one's sensory apparatus.
But I am being generous.
I like a few of his movies, Wall Street, Fourth, but I don't care for directors who put too much of them selves in the movie. Spike Lee is another.
"To Do Is To Be" Socrates
"To Be Is To Do" Plato
"Do Be Do Be Do" Sinatra
I find that directors who put more of themselves into their works are infinitely more interesting. Personal films are generally the greatest films IMO.
Do you mean you don't like directors who put too much of their personal *political* views into their films? That is something else.
Good point. I do like directors who put their artistic selves in their work, I’m not so sure about their personal selves though. I think I enjoy the way a director tells the story not how they feel about the story.
"To Do Is To Be" Socrates
"To Be Is To Do" Plato
"Do Be Do Be Do" Sinatra
Edits: 07/27/11
important films, shining blinding light on the time. I've only watched "Salvador, again, and I've done so several times. It is very good filmmaking. I think it was his high point. Still, the other films are significant. Did anyone else illuminate the Vietnam War better?
"JFK" also was interesting filmmaking, taking license with the facts, of course, as artists do. One doesn't read Shakespeare's "Henry 5" for historical accuracy.
Many lived through the JFK era. Different standards do apply.
I generally dislike the artists who shove their politics into your face - there are other venues for that - let him do Air America videos.
Richard III also is known for its many inaccuracies.
Anyhow, there is no political propagandizing in "Salvador,""Fourth of July," or "Platoon." These are realistic portrayals of humans in war time situations. You want politicizing? Try John Wayne's "Green Berets" and you may notice a difference.
"JFK" was an interesting take on the man, his demise. With so much conjecture out there about the assassination, it hardly is radical.
I think only Sean Penn is more pushy in his ideology.
d
Both have their audiences.
nt
......to Stone. As much as I bemoan his wasted talent.....
not a valid comparison. You don't like either guy. Both are lefties but that's it.
ET
That is about it.
I agree with you.
He should have had his directors license revoked years ago.
"Lock up when you're done and don't touch the piano."
-Greg House
The epitome of Stone is Natural Born Killers, in which he criticizes the sensationalism of violence in popular culture by...making one of the most sensationalistic, gratuitously violent films in movie history. Thereby becoming a shining example of the trash he thought he was cleverly criticizing. And all his films somehow erode under their own weight in this way.
Still, there are moments in some of his films, such as the desert scene in The Doors, when he manages to visually capture the essence of a subject, time or place. He did it in Born on the Fourth of July, too, with the way he filmed the wheelchair. I could stomach sitting through his films 20 years ago, to enjoy those brief moments. Now I don't have the patience.
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We must be the change we wish to see in the world. -Gandhi
"The epitome of Stone is Natural Born Killers, in which he criticizes the sensationalism of violence in popular culture by...making one of the most sensationalistic, gratuitously violent films in movie history. Thereby becoming a shining example of the trash he thought he was cleverly criticizing."
I think that was intentional on his part. I don't think he wasn't aware of the revulsion the movie would arouse in the audience.
It's like the logic employed by the serial killer (as voiced by Kevin Spacy) in 'Seven' on gluttony.
"He did it in Born on the Fourth of July, too, with the way he filmed the wheelchair. I could stomach sitting through his films 20 years ago, to enjoy those brief moments. Now I don't have the patience.:
I concurr.
> > I think that was intentional on his part. I don't think he wasn't aware of the revulsion the movie would arouse in the audience. < <
But it didn't arouse revulsion. It was embraced by the MTV generation as a cult classic in the way these same chumps would soon embrace Tarantino, further advancing gratuitive violence in popular culture.
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We must be the change we wish to see in the world. -Gandhi
"But it didn't arouse revulsion." - Jazz inmate
"The epitome of Stone is Natural Born Killers, in which he criticizes the sensationalism of violence in popular culture by...making one of the most sensationalistic, gratuitously violent films in movie history. Thereby becoming a shining example of the trash he thought he was cleverly criticizing." - Jazz inmate
...and you weren't the only one.
"It was embraced by the MTV generation as a cult classic in the way these same chumps would soon embrace Tarantino, further advancing gratuitive violence in popular culture."
Now, I think you're being too harsh on Tarantino. I don't find him to be in the same league as Stone. Unlike Stone, he does care about his characters, and don't use them simply as tools for engaging in 'chain yanking' like Stone.
He quickly took the mantle in using graphic violence gratuitously. But you're right that he's a different animal.
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We must be the change we wish to see in the world. -Gandhi
Trying to outdo the last guy, or yourself, is at best banal, tasteless and off-putting. Plus it gives rise to the Eli Roth's of this world.
He was there after all and for all of his faults the man has never shied away from tackling the very difficult and important issues facing US society that so many directors could/should have but were either too chicken shit or too engrossed in maxing box office and feeding the beast.
'Natural Born Killers' was something people either loved or hated, I think it struck just a bit too close to home for many and was just too juggled up for most.
J.B.
... tackle the difficult subjects.
"He was there after all and for all of his faults the man has never shied away from tackling the very difficult and important issues facing US society that so many directors could/should have but were either too chicken shit or too engrossed in maxing box office and feeding the beast."
My problem with Stone is his intellectual hedonism/anarchism. My observation is that he's simply using these difficult subjects to feed his ego, simply by 'yanking' the chain.
After all, isn't that what sophomorism stands for?
I'm not saying that all projects must be ego driven but it is a very important component of the artistic/creative process...yes Stone is personally caught up in his projects, how could a Vietnam Veteran make a film like 'Born On The Fourth Of July' and not invest himself totally within it?He has lived a large part of the modern American Experience, been scarred, uplifted and informed by it so why would that not be part of his art?
BTW, anyone calling BOT4thOJ an ego trip or ego driven is wrong IMO.
One large problem with Stone's style of film making (and it can be off putting, 'Nixon' for instance, was chain yanking on a grand scale IMO) is that there are many folks who have no ability to separate their politics and world view from art and for them he is written off early...most times without having seen the films in question. So if a more politically acceptable director was making these films (with the same content) they would be welcomed by these folks.
J.B.
Edits: 07/26/11
That was about the only Stone movie I could watch repeatedly. Actually, I was a bit surprised at the emotional honesty shown in the movie.
Remember the scene when the mom no longer is proud of her son, when he came home. Remember the scene at the pool room, where Tom Cruise was ranting about his plight, one of the redneck type gave him the cold shoulder and told him to exemplify as a marine.
"I'm not saying that all projects must be ego driven but it is a very important component of the artistic/creative process...yes Stone is personally caught up in his projects, how could a Vietnam Veteran make a film like 'Born On The Fourth Of July' and not invest himself totally within it?
He has lived a large part of the modern American Experience, been scarred, uplifted and informed by it so why would that not be part of his art?"
I agree, my problem is when Stone doesn't show his artist side as seriously as '4th of July' in his other movies, instead he behaves similarly as Michael Moore and Lady Gaga types.
"BTW, anyone calling BOT4thOJ an ego trip or ego driven has questionable critical and observational abilities IMO."
I agree, and I think you missed what I had said about '4th of July' earlier.
Some such subjects guarantee cash flow.
.....call it 'yellow cinematism'!
... his socially and culturally relevant movies for our times.Stone has a reporter's eye and the good sense of a skilled movie maker (and writer) for when fictionalizing is called for.
Not quite as daring or artistic as Francis Ford Coppola, but miles ahead of the pack for his generation - imo. It has been a while though since his last memorable work, for me. (lost me at "Natural Born Killers").
Say like Coppola, but with 1/3 the calories?
Edits: 07/25/11 07/26/11
"... his socially and culturally relevant movies for our times."
I find him using the metaphors of what is considered socially and culturally relevant as ways to 'yank' the chain to feed his ego.
Some teenagers behave like that.
"Stone has a reporter's eye....."
...yes, yellow journalism reporter's eye.
"... and the good sense of a skilled movie maker (and writer) for when fictionalizing is called for."
I do agree technically he is proficient. I just don't care much for his 'chain yanking' just to feed his ego/vanity.
"Not quite as daring or artistic as Francis Ford Coppola,....."
Surely you must over-estimate Coppola. I find most of his movies real bores.
... I feel that the "kid in him" makes for an honesty and freshness in his film's point of view that is endearing.
Not all share this sensibility or are able to ignore Stone's "stamp", but it doesn't bother me enough to dismiss his earlier works.
I was repulsed by "Natural Born Killers", and haven't gotten over that one enough to venture into other of his films since - but that doesn't keep me from "hope".
I sense, like some here, that he has perhaps crossed a threshold past innocence into self-indulgence and for that might have overstayed his welcome to tell stories that relate artistically or socially.
Still, Stone has done enough to retain my appreciation.
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